to think that my DD has a right to a secular education

[Tinnitus]

Two years ago my DD came home to tell EXP and Me about the "true meaning of Christmas". We are both atheists and had purposely sought out a non religious school and so we were perplexed. We took every opportunity to explain that this story was just that, a story, not the literal truth.

Inevitably DD soon started on about the true meaning of Easter and so I made an appointment to see the headmistress of her school. By the time of the appointment I had learned from DD that it was a classroom helper who was feeding her this guff and not a teacher, and I felt a quiet word would suffice.

Imagine my surprise when I discovered that not only was the helper indoctrinating DD, but the local evangelical church held monthly assemblies with the children. Indeed it turns out that every school in the country must be affiliated with a church of some type, but is not obliged to brand themselves thus. The head mistress was courteous and obliging and agreed to my request that the brainwashing of DD stop. I made no demands about her education other than She does not come home spouting twaddle.

Two years on and she is beginning to again to talk about Heaven, Hell, God and the Devil. But she has no idea who Adam and Eve were. When I "tactfully" quizzed her about this I discover a local CofE vicar has been regularly talking to the children about his faith, but without emphasizing that it is only his own opinion. Worse still, He has had my DD praying in class.

I have asked the school to live up to their earlier agreement as calmly as I could.

AIBU

OP, you're absolutely right that your DD has the right to a secular education, and not to take part in the "collective act of worship" or receive RE or RI in lessons.

But YABU if you insist that the method by which the school acheives a totally secular education for your daughter (in the light of their legal obligation to provide a collective act of worship and RE lessons) can't involve her being separated from her friends - you have the right to withdraw your DD from assembly/RE lessons. You don't have the right to insist that assembly/lessons don't take place, and I imagine you'd be a bit annoyed if another parent said to the head "I want my DD to attend assembly and don't want her to be separated from her friend, who is Tinnitus's DD, so you need to make sure Tinnitus's DD attends assembly with her".

My personal view (which I'm not trying to impose on anyone else) is that part of a proper education is equipping children with the means to question everything - and the means to decide for themselves what level of evidence they require for a given proposition, whether that's "2+2=4" or "a supreme being exists, and is generally referred to as God" or "lots of people believe lots of different things".

I don't think your real argument is with the school here - it's with the law as it stands, and you have the right to lobby for a change. But you don't have a greater right to lobby for a change than someone who believes that the schools should tell everyone about the existence of a flying spaghetti monster, or whatever.

Learning about religions, belief systems and myths, which is very interesting, is totally different from being taught that one of them is The Truth.

@ gingertoo

I take your point, but I am being more measured in my language with DD, I do respect other peoples right to their beliefs, but that does not mean I have to treat those beliefs with great solemnity. If she is being taught things as fact that can't be proven in school, then I have a duty to be concerned.

@ frakkinaround

The issue of my right to a secular education in a bit of a smoke screen, I want the school to follow through on their original promise. I would be happy for them to broaden the scope of these "lessons", provide they reinforce the point that this is only what they believe in a manner seven year olds will understand.

Very interesting thread. Sorry OP, but you are so strong in your convictions, I can just see your DD rebelling in a few years and becoming a missionary

Pmsl "flying spaghetti monster"

And I agree the law is an ass!

It is an essential life skill for children to be able to evaluate information critically. I am happy for my son to have exposure to a broad range of people and viewpoints, including those that don't match my own. I am teaching him to ask questions and form his own opinions. Schools should be encouraging this.

OP, I do not get easily annoyed but describing other people's sincerely held beliefs as 'twaddle' is a poor example for your DD of how to behave towards other people. I feel sorry for her being brought up by someone with such closed minded and intolerant views. Unless you are posting just to be deliberately inflammatory.

If you remove the Christian aspects then Christmas and Easter have no meaning at all.Do you want your dd to grow up thinking she has 2 weeks of school to eat chocolate eggs or selection boxes?YABU

Why does there have to be a "meaning" to xmas and easter?

Christmas and easter have cultural importance in this country.

Pranma, I personally am entirely happy for my children to believe they have 2 weeks off school at the end of March to eat chocolate eggs because it is TRUE. That is what happens. I can prove it, and I can show them the proof. They get two weeks off = fact. I buy chocolate eggs for them to eat = fact. Why would I be unhappy about them believing facts?

boiledeggandsoldiers - how would you like other peoples deeply held views that you consider to be nonsense be referred to? Is this any deeply held views or just religous ones? How would you define 'religon'?

(I'm only being partially facetious - I would like to know what you think. The last question might be a bit broad though )

I quite agree. I am very happy for my kids to be taught about different religions, but not happy for them to be taught that Christianity is the Truth... which is basically what happens at school unless you specifically pull them out of assemblies etc.

DD2, by the way, is now going to Scripture Union meetings at school and loves it - she starting going because her friends went and you get sweets, and now I think she's starting to take it seriously... However, it's a lunchtime club and it's her choice to go so I'm fine with this - very different I think to assemblies.

Hooray for the petition - have signed it.

DD1 is supposed to make an Easter craft to take into school for an Easter parade next week. She's made a couple of Easter eggs, but we'll also be making a seder plate for Passover, and I'll write a little blurb to go with it explaining what it is and why.

You see, there's always someone for whom the spaghetti monster is a new piece of amusement. I went through a stage of being the resident stroppy atheist on here, and was accused of "using" the "silly" spaghetti monster argument again and again. Which is a bit rich, really!

'The total lack of secular schools shows the government does not respect the views of a large % of the population.'

It doesn't show this at all! You have to have an understanding of history and the government can't just do that-even if they wanted to. It is impossible until you separate the state from the church. It needs a complete change of constitution. At the moment it is the state religion, the Prime Minister chooses the bishops. The Queen is head of both. This first step is to separate the church from the state.

I think it is all an interesting subject-it is one that mankind has been thinking of since the world began. Communism failed to kill it off-despite every effort. Scientist are split and many scientists have a faith.

The UK has a cultural history of Christianity and even if you don't buy chocolate eggs for any religious reasons I think that DCs should know where the idea comes from-by all means tell them the pagan part of spring and new life too, but don't censure things. It is a very interesting subject to debate with them, knowing that everyone holds different views. I think it very sad to close off your DC from a rich heritage and lively debate by saying 'there is no God because Mummy says so-we are not talking about it-Mummy has spoken. You WILL believe what Mummy tells you-any other view is rubbish'!!! It isn't how I wish to bring up my children. I want them to hear all views and make up their own mind-there is no reason why it should match mine. I don't see any harm in attending collective worship-it is one way of finding out whether it is for them or not.

I can't understand why making a DC attend church and telling them they WILL believe in God would be thought overbearing and yet telling a DC that no one is allowed to talk to them about God and they WILL not believe in God isn't overbearing.

I don't see the difference-it is rigid and controlling parenting in both cases. I much prefer-'we believe this, other people believe that-when you are older it will be up to you what you think'.

And you will always be the First Resident Stroppy Atheist in my heart, UQD.

It's hard for me to put myself in your shoes, OP, b/c as an American the only people who got religious education that I knew growing up were those whose parents paid for them to go to seperate Catholic or Baptist schools. Everybody else just went to the free public schools and sang about Santa and snow during the Winter Assemblies.

But I suppose I would be annoyed if my DS went to school and was presented with atheism as fact, b/c I don't believe it is. And I wouldn't want him to be force-fed Christianity either, though I'm a Christian. I don't really want him taught any beliefs outside of my home, though I would of course be fine with him being taught about different religions so long as they were given equal play.

Pranma: But the real meaning of the festivals currently known as Christmas and Easter has bugger all to do with the Abrahamic religions, Christianity just kind of parasitically descended on a bunch of older traditions (midwinter/winter solstic/Saturnalia, an excuse for a piss up in the miserable depths of winter in the Northern hemisphere, and a spring fertility festival - this is why Easter moves around every year, it's fixed in relation to the full moon after the spring equinox or something like that).

Piscesmoon - the issue is that if you are telling your child "We believe this, other believe this etc." and then the other major authority in their lives - the school - is saying "this is how the world is" there is a mismatch.

SolidGoldBrass - I think the idea that there is a REAL meaning is a little suspect.

@ boiledeggandsoldiers

I'm sorry you think my choice of language was inappropriate, some of it was to avoid bad grammar and repetition. and some of it was considerably milder than what I was thinking. but none of it was what I used to discuss this with DD.

Some of you are pointing out that I'm guilty of being as bad as any religious parent by insisting DD ONLY hear my thoughts on the subject. You are wrong of course, I have never imposed my views, or even discussed my beliefs with DD.DD is seven and has as yet failed to esquire spontaneously about the origins of creation, preferring to simply play with her dolls house and friends.

My point is that for another adult to take it upon themselves to fill her head, against my explicit wishes, is simply wrong. When she grows up she can do and think as she pleases, and I will then encourage her to think about these issues. For now I would rather she stick to the dolls house and enjoy being seven.

My DCs school didn't say 'this is how the world is'-they weren't a faith school and they always put in front the 'words this is what Christians believe'.
It wouldn't worry me if they didn't, I don't for one moment think that my DCs would take it as 'the truth' anyway. I took them to church and they didn't. I have brought them up to think for themselves-'you must think so because Mummy says so and Mummy is the fount of all knowledge', wouldn't go down well-thankfully. I still can't understand why my DC should think like me just because I am the parent-they are not my possessions-it isn't in my gift to tell them what to believe.
I am certainly not going to censure what they hear. As it happens I believe in God-and they are quite clear that they don't- so what?! There is nothing to say that Gordon Brown's DC is going to be a member of the labour party when they grow up. An atheist with censureship views may well be a parent of the future Archbishop of Canterbury. You give birth but you can't force your DC to have your views! Some of this dogmatic thinking would make me do the very opposite if my parents had told me 'we think this and so therefore you will'!
My father had very strict Methodist parents-it put him completely off and as soon as he was old enough he voted with his feet.

Just out of interest, how can Christmas and Easter not be Christian? They're celebrating the birth of Christ and the ressurection of Christ.

Just because the celebrations are held on dates where there were possibly already celebrations doesn't mean they're secretly all about worshipping bunnies.

sorry "enquire"

@ ucky1979

The dates were used by the church because it meant less upheaval for the customs of the people they were trying to convert. remember the early church came with just a few missionaries, the wholesale slaughter came much later, so it helped to simply cover over the existing dates with xtian ones. this is also why there are yew trees in churches, they all predate the church and early xtians simply built on top of pagan sites all of which contained yew trees.

If you are explaining the pagan side you should at least expalin the Christian side to DCs and not withhold the information-without it they won't understand a lot of art and literature.