To think that a Doctor shouldn't be telling a woman with PND that she shouldn't have more children as she clearly can't cope!!!!

[memoo]

I am so cross about this!!!

I have been suffering with PND and Anxiety since the birth of my DD 5 months ago. I have been very ill with it but I'm slowly getting better with help from my GP and a lot of support from DH.

I have just been to the doctors this morning to get my prescription for my Anti-depressants. Had to see a different GP as my usual one wasn't available.

The doctor asked me quite casually if I was planning on having more children in the future. I said that I wasn't and he replied that is was for the best as I "am clearly stuggling to cope with the ones I already have"!!!!

Now I may be depressed but my children are all loved and well looked after. By the time DH gets home from work they are all fed, bathed/shower, homework done etc. I am also managing to keep on top of the housework. Basically I AM coping!!! In fact I think I am coping very well considering that I am also battling mental illness!!

Being mentally ill doesn't mean I am a bad mum, but thats how he made me feel!!!!

J0807bump, I've looked at your posts, I don't have pages so have just scanned the thread to read what you've said so i hope I've got it right .

People with clinical depression are more likely to have pnd, there's a link backed up with clinical evidence. I do think there are differences though between the 2. PND seems more florid, more violent in it's intensity almost. And you can't just sucumb to the physical side of it, the lethargy and the slowed downess as you're looking after a baby! Also please don't undersetimate the detrimental effects of sleep deprivation on mood, with no opprtunity for a catch up. The first thing we do in work when someone is looknig like they have depression is check their sleep and try to rectofy any probs with it (insomnia/hypersomnia/early morning wakening). This intervention alone (sometimes brief course of sleeping pills) can work wonders on mood. But both PND and depression often can have similar "signatures". Often individuals with these problems have "perfectinism schema" which drives this sense of utter inadequacy and hopelessness. the chaos and lack of control many women feel after having a baby if they are perfectionists can pre dispose them to developing PND. Similarly self berating, self critical thoughts are often prevalent in depression, tied in with not being "prefect".

LEM I'm no expert but certainly for me bf exacerbated my pnd and general fed upness. And I know from anecdotal accounts that bf often makes women feel so bad due to feeling trapped and enslaved that they decide to stop for their own sanity. I carried on for months as I had to be "perfect" for my dc. With both dcs it probably would have been better for my mental state and therefore for them if I'd stopped sooner.

It's controversila on here but my personal belief is that a Mothers mental health is more important for her dcs long term than doggedly carrying on with bf despite the detriment to your own and your dcs emotional health. there are many that disagree with me though. They refuse to accept that even if it "works" and with lot of support bf can well and truly do a womans head in.

I hope this helps

re my last post. im watching this thread and trying not to get involved, too close to home at mo.

as i said earlier my pg was unplanned apparently that 3% can be me if the contraception is only97% effective

i guess i just wanted to ask a proffesional opinion on the diff between clinical and pnd.

no matter. bedtime now if i can get DH off the xbox!

thanks for both posts.

yes sleeping has always been a big prob for me. when DS was 6 1/2 weeks i gave up bf with masking tape and shields and was put on short course tamazepan as hadnt slept more than hour straight since day before inducement

sleep or lack of it is my biggest fear this time which will be the last time

had also decided to express and bottle from begining because it was hell really.

im trying to be prepared for everything including moving back to home town so i have family on doorstep this time

thanks again prob from hubby too as hes still playing with his buttons!

'PND can affect attachment. And no matter how perfect a Mum you are, you can't fake it to a baby, that's just how it is. '

CAN affect. Doesn't always. Any more than any other mental illness. Any more than an adoptive parent who does not meet her/his child until the child is a bit older.

I had PND. DS is now 16 months and the fog is clearing. And we, we are very attached.

So am I to my two daughters.

There is no stronger love, than mine as a mother's for my children.

So to generalise is unprofessional and inappropriate. To throw comments such as this out to an individual one doesn't know well is unprofessional, inappropriate and potentially harmful

A therapist or health professional if he/she can't see that is doing a disservice to his/her client, and to him/herself, because it demonstrates that healthcare professional doesn't have very good judgement or the clarity that comes with intelligence and experience.

Appalled as I am by the comment the OP's GP made, even more so by those in the profession who show themselves as lacking in foresight and judgement.

Saddening, indeed.

No, we will not have any more children ourselves.

But for reasons other than mental illness. We, my husband and I, see beyond, see the whole picture that is a child's life, a family's life.

This thread illustrates, with stark clarity, just how and why mental illness continues to carry the stigma it does, and just how far those of us who are afflicted have to go.

Well, I am here, memoo. I am the light at the end of the tunnel.

And he was out of line.

This thread makes me a little

I had very severe pnd and was hospitalised for 5 weeks following the birth of my first dc while I was stabilised with medication and developed confidence to bond with my newborn.

It was my first experience of depression, although while pg I was diagnosed with bipolar (hormone swings made this much worse, although have had it for 15 years). Yes it was a horrible, horrible experience. I did wish to die at times and I was unable to bond with my son, and because of this I felt that I had failed as a mother and did not wish to continue.

However, pnd is a treatable condition, and this essentially was transient and passed. As soon as the meds kicked in (within 2 weeks) I was essentially 'normal' and 'better' to the extent that it would not be noticeable to an outsider. For a few more weeks I felt really unconfident with my ds - was I doing everything ok? But a lot of time spent playing with him, talking to him, feeding him helped me bond. I love him so, so much now that I couldn't imagine being without him.

I would like another child, although for financial reasons and just because we want to enjoy spending time with just our ds, we are not going ttc this year, or maybe next year. But when we do decide it is the right time to ttc I will speak to my GP, my local mental health team and self refer to my fab perinatal team who have assured me that women like me can go on to have further children. There are mood stabilisers and ad's that you can take during pregnancy. If I choose to continue with my meds while ttc they will support me. If I choose to come off my meds entirely while ttc and full or partial pregnancy they will offer as much support and careful monitoring to make sure that I remain stable.

When you have had pnd and live with a mental illness, yes conceiving again is a risk. There are some very, very small risks to the fetus (but no more than in other medcations for other conditions taken during pregnancy)and there is a higher risk of pnd again, but if it is an informed decision, taken with all the facts, it should not be frowned upon by other people who are not part of that situation.

If I do become pregnant again, there is a fairly high personal risk of relapse - especially if I go unmedicated again. However if the worst happens and I have to be hospitalised for a few weeks - so what? I have been through this before - it is a chemical and hormonal imbalance that can be corrected with meds. I will bond with the new baby (even if that feels impossible at the time) and it does not mean that I will be an inadequate mother.

It is very similar to being in the position of a parent recovering from major surgery; there will / may be things that you are unable to do for a while, - your children may notice that you are unwell, but every day you do get a little bit better and you are back to normality within a finite time.

OP, if i got the response you did from your doctor I would feel so and patronised. The implication being that as you have a mental illness you are not capable of deciding your reproductive future.

Whilst in the grip of severe pnd you may struggle to cope for a while, it does not mean that you will be an inadequate parent. And Memoo if you are personally fulfilling your children's basic and emotional needs (ie they are well fed, clean, happy and feel loved), regardless of how you may feel inside - you ARE coping.

I wasn't generalising expat that's why i said "can". certainly not always and not in every case.

PND in Mothers and any difficulties bonding is something that's explored in hopefully a supportive way in sessions rather than a critical one.

Obviously some mothers bond fantastically with their babies regardless of illness, mental or otherwise.

I bonded with dd BUT my "affect" for want of a better word was altered, this affected our relationship to the extent she had trust issues with me and wouldn't let me hold her or care for her. I never felt hostile towards her, in fact I was probably over protective. But she read something in me, or more maybe struggled to read me nonetheless.

And I see similar at work.

I certainly didn't mean it a s ageneralisation, just as something than can and does happen.

There's plenty of literature out there on risk factors for dcs of Mums with depression. But they're risk factors, not certainty.

it's very treatable in most cases, fluffy.

i'm blessed with a wonderful GP and consultant.

Thanks expat

It really helps to have good and enabling support from hcp's. Mine are fab too.

Fluffy, yours is an excellent post. Thank you for sharing your experiences.

And for showing that having PND does not mean you can never have the family you feel is right for you.

"So in summary I'm afraid I don't think the GP was out of line, I think they have a valid if somewhat clumsily delivered point. GPs aren't therapists though, they have a few minutes to deal with huge issues."

that's what others on this thread have been saying all along!

My PND has definately not affected my attachment to my DD. Our bond is so close, we are like one. I can't get enough of her, the way she feels and smells!

She is my whole world and an absolute joy to have in my life. She truely is a little gift from God

Every single decision I make is based around what is best for my baby and my other 2 DC.

Infact the main thing that spurs me on to get treatment is that I owe in to my children to always be the best mum I can.

I REALLY resent any implication that my mental illness affects my ability to parent.

People who think PND equals a bad parent clearly have no understanding of mental illness at all.

Expat, LEM and Fluffy, you all say it so much better than me! Your posts echo my feelings exactly x

Maybe he is thinking, you are doing well in your situation, so why chance a good thing?
Does he know you very well?

I think you're overreacting. Don't see him next time. I wouldn't think highly of someone who made an official complaint about this.

ps Memoo you do sound like you're doing very well considering the strain you're under.

I don't think the GP was out of line to say if you are suffering from depression then it's probably not a good idea to have any more children now. What I do object to was:

• this was out of the blue. OP had not mentioned anything of the sort and had not asked for family planning advice.
• he implied she wasn;t coping. not wouldn't cope but was failing at the moment.

I once visited the GP as a teenager for a viral thing. While I was there he said "Have you done anything about your acne?" I still remember thinking "If I'd wanted help with my acne I'd have asked". Of course I didn't. This is much much worse than that as he called into question her abilities as a mother!

And also he asked if she were planning to have any more children in the future.

Not now, but in the future.

As if PND is a lifelong reason to never have anymore children.

And you're not a 'poor dear who's under strain' when you have PND.

People with armies of staff can develop it, like Brooke Shields.

You're a person with a medical condition.

Women who develop low-thyroid after childbirth can often feel completely exhausted, all the time, and this can cause a lot of problems in how they care for their children.

But we don't leave them unmedicated or imply they shouldn't have any more children because of this condition.

Mental illness is fair game for some, I guess.

Yes, very true
Maybe they should be telling people with conjunctivitis that they should never drive again (whether they ask or not)

'expat-to suit your own ends you can keep twisting this thread to be anti-people with mental illness-it rather clouds the issue somewhat.'

There's no conspiracy theory here, TSC. Please stop looking for one.

There are opinions and mine is that the GP acted unprofessionally and inappropriately.

Just to re-iterate. Again.

Thought you were leaving this thread? You wrote as much a while back.

Guess we can live in hope . . .

they might not be able to cope, TheStealth.

it's such a strain.

It wasn't nice, but it wasn't that bad. God, they let a kid die of thirst in hospital. Some give inappropriate medications. Some lie about vaccines given. Some send dying children home. All might be the result of overwork, stress, exhaustion. In the scale of things, it was a blunt remark to the wrong person, not good, but not that bad.

If I was op I would be requesting doctor's notes to make sure they are accurate: wouldn't want to see that doctor again: wouldn't make a complaint.

Actually MEMOO if you are still reading I will put this separately: if you are up to it, try to get access to your notes. You might want to check that this isn't in there as well as popping out of the doctor's mouth.

If it gets you gone it can't be a bad thing.

Good thinking, barefoot!