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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Former friend with chequered past about to marry Saudi muslim...

162 replies

BelleDameSansMerci · 31/01/2010 18:16

...and I am genuinely concerned that she doesn't necessarily have the temperament for monogamy. AIBU to be so worried or should I just keep my beak out?

I should state that although I am not religious I do have a lot of respect for the Muslim faith and my concern is not that she has converted, etc, but that she will find it hard to live according to Muslim law in Saudi.

Background - we were close friends approx 9 years ago when she moved to Bahrain. She married English chap based out there. I went to wedding, etc. She was quickly unhappy and the marriage ended. She has since floated about from man to man and has now become engaged to a Saudi Muslim and is fully covered, etc.

She has always wanted a man who will provide for her financially so she doesn't have to work and is not great at taking responsibility for her actions. So, on the one hand this may be ideal for her but, on the other, I am very worried that her overly romantic streak and desire to be desired and adored by new men may prove disastrous if she is living in Saudi.

OP posts:
sarah293 · 04/02/2010 18:50

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lovechoc · 04/02/2010 19:04

hope you can make contact with your friend to see how she's doing now she's married.

I personally have no desire to visit any Muslim country, and certainly couldn't see the attraction of being a second-class citizen but each to their own...

illgetyoubutler · 04/02/2010 19:23

I dont know about that, i havn't read or heard anything regarding this.

Judy1234 · 04/02/2010 20:43

illget is right. It's like Christianity and Judaeism - the fundamentals are simply do to others what you would have done to you. But men (never women) use the religion to keep women down. Jesus through out all the silly rules and regulations but man (never women) made them up again. I suspect all religions would be better if only women could be priests and in charge of mosques. I am sure that will come or at least equality will.

The fundamental includes all people equal. Man made rules about who wears what or which have been ridiculously altered by men, never women, such that a requirem ent men dress modestly and women is then changed so that women suffer is something all good Muslims need to over throw very quickly unless they want to appear told worldwide idiots. God who may well be female anyway thinks all discrimination on grounds of sex is fundamentally wrong. The Koran sought to outlaw discrimination and of course is a creature of its time. Good religions cast aside the temporary misogyny and patriarchy of their day and look to what God requires. All people created equal and in the image of God. God made them different which is such fun. He made them gay in his/her image too.

Anyway all sexism is being removed bit by bit. The internet and access to the rights which the West has is going to and already is drive out sexism even in Saudi before they know it. They are only just out of their tents so we can give them a bit of time to catch up and the oil will run out and the power go and they reach the situation of development in terms of fairness to all whatever colour, religion sex or creed that we now have in the West.

GothAnneGeddes · 05/02/2010 00:54

"I personally have no desire to visit any Muslim country, and certainly couldn't see the attraction of being a second-class citizen but each to their own..."

This is exactly the sort of brain dead comment I'm talking about.

There are one billion plus Muslims world wide.

They are not all the same.

Muslim majority countries are not all the same.

Very few Muslim majority countries are actually governed by Sharia law. Most actually have a mix of secular/colonially influenced laws with the odd bit of sharia thrown in.

As for "They are only just out of their tents"

Have you not heard of the Islamic empire then Xenia, and that it was making vast leaps forward in, well just about everything, while Europeans were running around in the mud?

sarah293 · 05/02/2010 08:00

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lovechoc · 05/02/2010 13:42

Goth get off your high horse - I'm not racist and the comment wasn't aimed at attacking one religion over another...

I basically meant (should have really elaborated in the earlier post) that I have no interest in going to a country where there are such wide restrictions on people - mainly women - because it is nothing something that I'd feel comfortable with. why would I want to be looking over my shoulder all the time wondering if I'm breaking a rule, even as a tourist? I know many others who enjoy travelling around the world but avoid places like Saudi or any other Muslim country - they tend to visit places where religion doesn't get in the way.

GothAnneGeddes · 05/02/2010 14:03

Lovechoc - Shall I spell it out to you very slowly:

Not all Muslim majority countries are the same.

Very few of them are like Saudi Arabia.

The role religion plays in public life varies widely

Either you understand that, or I'll have to retract my statement about you being racist and say that you're racist and ignorant too.

independiente · 05/02/2010 14:20

Goodness, interesting thread.

Re: 'leftovers', I suspect the 'leftovers' are perfectly abundant and of deliciously high quality. But that's not really the point. Being told that you can eat what is left only after someone else has finished is a very primal and symbolic way of saying that you have lower basic rights than that person.
If you believe and accept that women inherently have lower basic rights than men, then it's probably easier to live in Saudi. If you don't, it's going to be utterly demoralising at best, life-threatening at worst.

kickassangel · 05/02/2010 14:27

Xenia - I am not sure that I agree that it is only men who allow/manipulate religion in order to shackle women. other women do it too. i have only had experience of quite moderate church, yet it seemed to be the women who handed out the condemnation most easily. it was as if by taking these rules & publicly condemning others, it made themselves worthier.

i have been 'bad mouthed' for being drunk too often (when i was drinking water), flirting with the men (well, i talked to the men, i didn't sit in a corner & just look at them) and being too provocotive in what i was wearing (a skirt above the knees, with thick black tights).

sadly, i think wherever there are rules & a hierarchy, people will use those rules as one-up-manship. when you add religion, it gives them the right to sneer at other people. women are just as good at this as men, and i think that sensible men actually see the harm that is done by this.

wannaBe · 05/02/2010 14:49

islam is a religion not a race. Thus having objection to muslim practices does not make one a racist.

Judy1234 · 05/02/2010 15:30

Yes, but women have never been 100% in charge ni any religion or society and made the rules and been brought up without sexism so we certainly cannot say the rules in the Bible or Koran or even in Saudi law etc were 100% produced by women. Whilst I accept women are the ones who insist on FMG for millions of little girls that is because of the culture imposed on them by men who want to control the sexuality of women and know who has had babies with whom so they can own and control women.

I agree not everywhere is like Saudia. It's one of the worst muslim states on earth although Catholics in Nigeria even are having a hard time these days and places like Iran which used to have lots of toleration for religious minorities are getting worse.

There are no muslim states where women have better or the same rights are secular or Christian states on the whole planet. If you can name one that would be great. Very happy to be proved wrong. Look at Turkey? Dreadful compared to the EU. Malaysia? Not good.

GothAnneGeddes · 05/02/2010 15:49

WannaBe - nice link for you here: www.darkmatter101.org/site/2008/03/26/racism-and-islamophobia/

Basically, many people use very racist language to criticise Muslims, see also Orientalism.

I think you'd find women in North Korea have worse rights, so that's one. I can't think of any Muslim majority country where the government enforces abortion either (unlike China). There are many non Muslim majority countries with far lower female literacy rates (and higher rates of FGM too).

Turkey is an avowedly secular state which happens to have a Muslim majority. Can you not see the difference? You talk about these countries as if they are all exactly the same and that is what I find so infuriating, because it is so ignorant.

Islam is not the only show in town here. Post-colonalism, economic circumstance and politics all play a massive part.

Most countries with a Muslim majority population do not consider themselves Islamic states and most are officially secular.

groundhogs · 05/02/2010 18:03

I've actually LIVED in one of the supposedly open islamic countries.

It's simply NOT racist to suggest that women are viewed in such places as a lower being than men. It's a matter of real fact.

Women simple don't 'do' certain things in these countries that we here take for granted. They don't go to certain places and if they do, they are often placing themselves at risk.

If bad things happen and the law comes into play, they suffer, more so than a man, pretty much every time.

The man DOES have it his way entirely, and if she doesn't like it, that's tough really.

It's utterly down to him how much freedom he gives her, what she can and can't do. Often she can't just pop out and tell him later what she's up to, she has to ask if it's OK, in advance, and he is able to say No, it's not, and she is not supposed to even raise her voice....

You're getting the picture now that I didn't exactly thrive in that environment now aren't you? You may even begin to understand my 'name'.....

FWIW, it's not sharia law that dictates that women need to be seen as half a man. From my understanding sharia law as it was written and originally intended, was a heck of a lot fairer at the outset than it is today.

It's the warped interpretation of the written law by today's men that has eroded female equality and basic rights.

In real terms, on the ground as it were, in muslim majority countries society itself now perpetuates the inequality. Women are pretty much so entrenched and used to the position they cling to, that nothing really gets done to redress the imbalance. Mothers teach daughters, Fathers teach sons, nothing changes. I saw it as a kind of mass Stockholm Syndrome actually.

Sure, Some women in places such as Egypt for example, are trying to raise the issue of better female rights, action on the horrifying amount of sexual harassment seemingly tolerated in their everyday society, etc, but it's painfully slow process. Sadly, it's often hampered by the women there themselves as they are scared to be seen to rock the boat. Again, their mothers would remind them that it's not becoming, that they'll never be married with ideas like that in their heads. Sure not all are like that but many, many are.

Authorities too are not particularly keen to see any section of society gaining in confidence either, so it's pretty risky most of the time.

It truly saddens me here that we always seem to get into a she said-she said argy bargy and tirade of theory, facts and figures to supposedly defend a religion that is at least somewhat suspect in its complicity on the lack of female equality and fairness.

And before the flamethrowers reach for the matches, I don't believe the religion is necessarily at fault, it's the modern-day male interpretation of it.

We are not scholars here, we are merely debating what we view as fair or unfair to us as women.

It matters not a jot on who's 'watch' we women are treated as second class citizens. It needs to be stopped and stopped right now.

lovechoc · 05/02/2010 18:36

"islam is a religion not a race. Thus having objection to muslim practices does not make one a racist."

nicely put WannaBe

lovechoc · 05/02/2010 18:39

"It's simply NOT racist to suggest that women are viewed in such places as a lower being than men. It's a matter of real fact."

Nice POV from someone who has stated they have lived in such an open islamic country. they also seem to think women have the raw deal here - i agree, not racist but fact.

lovechoc · 05/02/2010 18:42

btw, well said groundhogs. nice post.

Judy1234 · 05/02/2010 19:18

Goth women in countries like North Korea do not have worse legal rights compared to men. Women and men are starving in North Korea but they can work and they do work. The state has no laws which make them worse off. The one good thing about the russian and Chinese communists in 1917 etc was that they were enshrining by law women's rights. They didn't get it very right but it was a huge step forward.

There is no Muslim state where women are better off in terms of their rights compared with men.

Pakistan used to be not too bad in parts - even had a female leader and its laws weren't to bad but it's gone backwards. Turkey which bans the veil in universities etc thank God might retreat to allow it to be worn and is much worse for women than say Greece but we might find a non Muslim country with worse rights for women than men compared with a muslim state. I am still thinking. Engrained sexism in law is not really part of many countries' legislative systems.

Pitcairn island may be? But that was a fascinating case - not even clear if subject to English laws or not and there are only 40 people on it and the laws were found to be English laws.

Probably a few jungle tribes may be are worse but they are few and far between and not all have women as second class citizens. No the only answer is for Muslims to do what Christians have done and divest yourself of the morally wrong sexist bits which God abhores anyway, get back to the core equality and respect for all people male and female and of course ditich the ridiculous Saudi traditions they've carried forward from desert tents and ought to know better than to perpetuate and we should of course spend money and time making it clear that all these unfair rules and practices against women in the Uk and abroad are morally appalling and we won't stand for it. Nerver mind invading for oil. We should invade to impose women's rights.

GothAnneGeddes · 05/02/2010 21:50

Look, how many times. Many countries with Muslim majorities don't actually use sharia law.

Xenia - You keep mentioning Turkey, it's a secular state. There is absolutely no sharia law in Turkey.

As for invading to impose women's rights, since all our invasions seem to bring is mass death and suffering for the general populace (all of whom are living in worse conditions then before), I would hardly call that liberating.

Groundhogs - One country. Right. When you mention about the government not wanting societal change, do you think it's because they're a dictatorship, or is it all the fault of Islam?

Lovechoc - Read the link. Much of the language used to criticise Muslim is racist.

Judy1234 · 05/02/2010 22:39

I know they don't but sometimes they do in practice such as honour killings in Pakistan. What is the GAG ooint? I am saying most countries with lots of muslims in are appalling in terms of how they treat women compared to men and I haven't been told any where that is not so so far compared with say how most women are treated in the UK or France but I am happy to be converted to a different view.

groundhogs · 05/02/2010 23:59

Goth, depends on where you specifically are talking about.

IME, dictatorship first, but as I think I was pretty bloody clear, it's NOT about islam persay, it's about the societal male domination. Arrogant, ignorant, impotent and scared little men that can't possibly allow equal freedom to women.

I have to add too that IME, the hypocrisy I've seen by some of the self same pious people of supposed good standing is sickening, say one thing, do the utter opposite. And all the time, treat the West as if we are depraved. THAT'S the biggest joke as far as I have seen, but again is nowt do to with religion, that's to do with civil behaviour and general morality of a nation.

Incidentally some local christian women are equally opressed. It's NOT about religion (yawn) it's about society in general.

If anything is to be said about islam as a religion, it's that modern interpretation of words written some thousand or so years ago, are being routinely twisted to suit the needs and desires of men today, among other unpleasant things, to also keep women 'in their place'.

Religion in these places of dictatorships keep people busy and so are in the main, tolerated by government. Religion is unofficially presented as the only emotional and social way of survival. It is increasingly the fall back education of the masses, as mainstream school education lags further and further behind.

IME, from what I've seen, this all suits the government right up till the point that beards are grown and full face veils are worn. Then they start to get worried. IME, the Government would not allow men wearing beards or women wearing the full veil to access certain governmental/public buildings. Nurses are required NOT to wear a full faced veil and anyone spouting strong religious/political views, and/or murmers of dissent were rounded up and held for months on end.

I've lived for a number of long and trying years in one predominantly muslim country, true, but have extensive shorter experience of others. Not professing to be an expert, merely sharing my experience.

Nowhere in my post did i point fingers directly and purely at Islam, Goth, can you please take a chill pill and get back off that high horse, it's looking about ready for the knackers yard.

Like I said, this really makes me sad that some can't have a normal debate about anything to do with that religion without some people getting all defensive and tetchy.

NOW, can we get back to the flaming OP? PLEEASE?

mumoverseas · 06/02/2010 05:41

groundhogs, excellent posts. Nice to read posts from people that have actually lived in muslim countries as opposed to those that have simply read about them.

Judy1234 · 06/02/2010 09:27

We all know it's mostly cultural but the mis-interpretaton of the Koran doesn't help.
I was in Iran again in the last 2 weeks. I'm not saying I'm an expert or lived in those countries for years (although I do live very much amongst veiled women, many many more veiled near my home here than I ever saw in Iran) but the Muslim countries are appalling.

What I hope is that mass media and Western values will inevitably seep through and women will as they have in just about every place on earth in due course risen up to be leaders, doctors and more importantly as important as men and earning more than many men in their own relationships and realise how sexist the culture they live in is.

But I think all women on the planet have a duty to encourage that insurrection, aid women's rights home and abroad, stand up for women and get these cultures changed.

In fact it's very helpful if people can publish the feminist interpretation of Islam. eg 4 wives was to curt back on loads and to ensure you support women although the idea men pay for women is in itself morally pernicious. Saudi needs to do what the UK did between about 1880 and 1970 (Equal Pay act). I am sure they will get there.

The letter in today's Times though contrasting Christian/Jewish views on polygamy and Muslim suggests it will be harder given the background that 4 wives is fine. Why not 4 husbands? Why are these Eastern women so pathetic and accepting of ridiculous sexism. Can't they read. Why do they let it go on. They really need to be prepared to die for changes as indeed other women have abroad.

mumoverseas · 06/02/2010 11:55

Xenia, my above post was not aimed at you. I'm fully aware that you've spent a great deal of time in Iran and know what you are talking about.

One thing I have to question though. Why on earth would any woman want more than one husband?

illgetyoubutler · 06/02/2010 12:40

why not 4 husbands?
im no scholer, but the first thing that comes to mind is there has always been a disproportionate number of women to men. by today, i heard on a radio show, the numbers are something like 7 to 1 women to there are men.
if a woman has 4 husbands and she becomes pregnant, how would they all figure out who the father is? the implecations, it just wouldnt work.

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