I want to ask this somewhre where I might get a range of responses so not asking in SN, ismore a would you agree with this lady thing than a AIBU. Sn kids in mainstream education.

[Peachy]

Someone today whom I respect immensely and regard as kind, told me that in her opinion children with disabilities like dyslexia etc (so ampresuming the whole gamut of SEN - SN) shoudln't be in MS schools because of the effect on the other kids.

She is someone who though not employed by school has access to DS1 (ASD) and ds2 (SEN not sure what) during school time in a volunteer role. I pretty much trust her.

DS3 attends an SNU placement, but I do wonder how many people really share that attitude. My experience and belief tells me that different kids benefit from different settings so parents should have final say (it took me 2 years to get ds3 his place, and I face a battle now to get ds1 into SN Comp placement).

?

I totally don't see the scary kids with sn thing. That is adults projecting their own fears onto children, in my view.

What is scary about a kid in a wheelchair or whatever? Surely children actually find this stuff really interesting? My dd is totally impressed with that there Cbeebies presenter, and we've had many chats about how her life might be the same/different.

Surely all children commit faux pas and pretend to be a T-Rex at bad times, and terrify the bejaysus out of some reception kid? Like 5inthebed says, once the children are used to it, they will be cool as cucumbers.

"coming late to this as have been out 'and frankly having read the thread there doesn't appear to be a child on here (or v few) with sn whose parents are prepared to accept that sometimes sn children do scare other kids-I am aware that nt children do that too but they can be disciplined etc but are you honestly saying that your childs sn have NEVER caused behaviour alarming/disruptive to other children/a class.'"

Well, I'd be surprised if mine had tbh, seeing that their SN consists of dodgy joints. Not unless their friends are very sensitive little plants who are scared by the sight of a wheelchair.

But who is claiming that autistic children cannot be disciplined? Noone on this thread.

Posters have tried again and again and again to explain on this thread that you need to adapt your methods of discipline to make them effective for children with certain types of SN. That's all. Doesn't mean that they cannot or should not be disciplined. Just that shouting at a child with autism may be about as productive as trying to discipline my dd by trying to make her run round the vegetable patch; she isn't physically capable of profiting from this type of discipline. So if she misbehaves, she'll have to be dealt with in some other way.

I think kids adjust to things quicker than people give them credit for

I dont think ds 'scares' other children, he just makes them feel uncomfortable at times and not just children, adults too.

I have a 'normal' boy who disrupts his class way more than the lad with Asperger's ever did!

I have total sympathy with parents of children with SN who do not want their children to be disadvantage in a MS school in order to provide 'an education' for these normal types but, the disruptive lad learnt more from mentoring a lass with Down's who was even less able to sit still than he was than he has ever learnt from me!

Youngest lad has also learnt to sign with his friend who has poor hearing. This can only be good for everyone surely?

I am so pleased to hear that on the whole having different people in schools (staff and students) enhances understanding. Of course all schools are not right for everyone, but I am really happy with ours. In my opinion, for what it is worth, good teachers treat young people as we would like to be treated, as individuals.

I cannot really believe that anyone would want to exclude a child (yes I did choose that term deliberately) because he pulled hair and stole a pencil case. On the other hand a parent might want to tackle a school that consistently failed to help individual children learn.

fgs ! Riven , thats awful . . . but tumble tots is generaly rubbish anyway.
Glad to hear DD is in a good school.
my DD is about to go mainstream in the summer , primary 1 class ....but i know she`ll be ok as the school has loads of SN kids of all types , they even have their own sensory room and have extra sn stuff (wheels and frames) .
The school has such a good reputation that their is a waiting list for people who want their kids to go there , and the local SN SCHOOL actually sends their pupils down by minibus so they can join in with the NT kids.
All children learn that differences can be a opositive thing and everyone is equally important and valued,regardless of their strengths or weaknesses.
Shame on the schools that allow nt kids to bully the sn kids....and shame on the adults who "allow" thier kids to do so , encouraging it by voiceing their opinions that SN kids should be excluded.

I do have not have children with SN but, in answer to Peachy's question, the woman was BU. It is down to what is best for the child. There is a little boy with autism in my DD's year group at school ( not her class this year). His behaviour can be challenging, but he has the 1:1 support he requires, and can be taken somewhere quiet when he gets overexcited.

The biggest problem DD1 has had in her 2 years of school were with a little shit NT boy who has no discipline and was frightening her and some other girls in the playground by running through their games, pushing them over and hitting them. His mother believes he can do no wrong.

I can also remember my own mother, before her retirement, getting extremely upset about a boy she taught (she taught the children with SEN in an MS school) who really needed a placement in a SN school, which was there for him. However, his mother did not want him to be 'different' and insisted he stayed where he was. It did him no favours, as he neede more help than he could be given. She still sometimes wonders what happened to him

Riven, I could imagine my DD1 being one of those queuing up to be your DD's special helper - she loves to be asked to do things like that . You'd get the third degree about why she was in a wheelchair and so on, mind you.

Did some of you misunderstand the bit where I said "intellectual or behavioural problems"?. I'm pretty sure that Stephen Hawkin doesn't have an intellectual or behavioural problem nor do the majority of children with dyslexia. But yes if your child has an ASD and this cases disruptive behaviour then I wouldnt want him in the same class as my child. ASD without disruptive behaviour-no issue.

I thought that was pretty straight forward really. And no, not a joke.

I think smallwhitecat makes good points. I also think that those who have said earlier in the thread that they "don't mind having SN kids in their school, just not in their own kid's class" need to understand one thing. Each and every one of us pays our taxes in order to fund a state school system for ALL. Not just for the able-bodied, not just for the "normally functioning", not just for those with blonde hair, or a certain skin colour, not just for those with an IQ above 150, not just for those born and bred in Shropshire - the list goes on. Subject only to parental wishes and their education not being disruptive to the efficient education of others (and schools must take reasonable steps to avoid such disruption eg by giving the kid a peaceful place to go), SN kids like my autistic son have as much right to be in that mum's class as her kid in mine!

The person talking to the OP may or may not like it, but that's the law of the land, and a good law imho.

There needs to be more ASD units around. A lot of ASD children are too bright for SN schools but can't cope with mainstream school so what are you to do?

A lot of children even with very severe CP have normal intelligence so why shouldn't they go to mainstream school?

Victoria, you still haven't answered my question about what you thought should be done about a child who had no SN and still displayed disruptive behaviour.

This can happen even to the best brought-up child: a friend of ds became very disruptive when he realised that his mum was going to die. Should we have ganged up on him and told the school we didn't want him in the same classroom as our own precious children?

Cory, I answered it. Like I said I don't want my child educated in the same class as distruptive children

Disruptive even.

victoria

Can I ask? What would you wantto happen to your child if bereavement, trauma or some other issue caused them to start being disruptive at their school?

A friend of mine is Head of a large SEN Unit within a MS school. There are pros and cons to this arrangement, not least difficulties fighting for funding for adequately trained staff. Overall it seems to be a model that other Authorities could build on though. Both the 'mixing' and the specialized acre are superb, and it offers support for Gifted, ebd and any other child who has some difficulties with academic or social lives.

The really good thing is that the young lad who is playing up because of his mother being ill can be supported by staff who are especially trained to deal with challenging behaviour without going to the ridiculous lengths of moving him! Additionally all those boys that are 'sort of' ADHD but do not need prescriptions instead benefiting from some of the strategies that have been developed for children with full blown ADHD, and their parents, have access to well qualified advice.

No, you don't, but what would be the solution? Given that this was a little boy with no learning difficulties, so clearly couldn't be catered for by any special school actually in existence. And that his life had already been massively disrupted, so that taking him out of school would make things even worse- even if there had been somewhere to take him, which there wasn't. Putting him in another class clearly wouldn't have solved the problem- why should other parents be expected to be less precious. So what would you have done with him???

Andf, if something ever happened to one of your LOs- what do you think should be done?

What happened to this little boy was that he got lots of support in his mainstream school, that he was helped to handle situations before they escalated, that both teachers and pupils were briefed on the situation and what could be done to make everybody's lives easier.

You see- unlike you, I want my children brought up to think of themselves as part of a community. Life is a fragile thing: these things can happen to any of us.

I believe it depends on the child. My DS1 is in mainstream secondary, has CP and possible ASD, but doing very well in MS. DD1 is currently in MS primary school, has CP, ADHD and learning disablitites, and is stuggling so will be likely to move to MLD secondary in 2011

Riven Out of curiosity how did DD do tumble tots if she is completely immobile?

Sweeping statements are never wholly right! It depends on the child. My personal view is that a good mix gives others a perspective on life that they would otherwise not have had.

And while you may dislike the idea of your child being used as teaching material, at the same time, if other people are not used to thinking of the needs and contributions of people with SN- what kind of a world will they be growing up in?

I am constantly aware that the mere presence of dd in her wheelchair means that her friends have to think about things like disabled access- otherwise, they can't socialise with her. Now one day, those friends are going to be voters and tax payers: would dd really be better off if they had never seen a disabled person at close hand, or never had to work with one?

If my dcs serve as teaching material- so be it, as long as it profits them in the end.

I have no issues at all with my children being in a class with disruptive children (for whatever reason) providing the staff were able to desk with it. If they clearly weren't then I would be asking the school to explain themselves. Schools often make a pigs ear of dealing with disruptive behaviour. And if the schools were not using appropriate strategies I would want to know why. It is (rightly) hard to have a conversation with a school about another child but I wouldbe blaming them or the LEA - not the child.

dd2 has cp and is in mainstream. we've always had fantastic support - in the uk the funding for het TA came in very handy for the class, who had a lot of un-dx sn/ children with behavioural issues who had not yet 'proved' a requirement for funded support. so dd2's TA was used a lot for other (at that point apparently nt) children.

dd2 has a higher iq than her doctor lol (which he thinks is funny) but is currntly unable to access the provincila gifted programme because it requires her to be able to write, and not type (which she can do).

on the behaviour issue - i have always always always (and loads of times on different threads on here) asked parents who believe that their own child's education is suffering as a result of another child's sn/ behaviour, to speak to the HT of the school. often schools have to beg the lea for additional funding to support these kids, and they need as much ammunition to take with them as possible. don't get snarky about disruptive kids - offer the school some constructive pointers about the necessity for giving the children concerned extra support, and keep on at them until they do.

the problem is not sn kids, the problem is lack of support for sn kids. insist your school provides adequate support, that way, no-one's precious darling's education is suffering, not princess fanny, and not the sn child who finds him/ herself unable to benefit from the same educational experiences as his/ her peers.

both dd1 and ds1 have experienced classes which would be routinely disrupted due to children with clearly very substantial needs - table throwing/ scissors throwing/ attacking the teacher etc. as both schools were unable to provide interim additional support whilst 'assessment' was taking place, effectively an evacuation plan was drawn up to ensure the rest of the children's safety in the event of an incident. the classes lost a lot of time sitting in the school hall/ alternative classroom whilst it was dealt with. with the support of parents, the school eventually secured emergency funding from the lea pre-dx, and ft support was put in place. everyone benefited, from the children who were no longer forced to evacuate their classroom with alarming regularity, to the children whose support staff got to know them/ their triggers, and helped them learn coping strategies.

i just fee really sad at the number of parents who shout 'out! out!' at children with any sort of sn... (and i've lost count of the number of parents who have been horrifed at the discovery that the poor little disabled girl in their child's class is actually the brightest of the lot)