to think that schools admissions aren't fair

[picklepud]

This is different from saying that I wouldn't go through the system if my child's local school had religious criteria, but I am feeling a bit sad and up in arms for a friend today. Same old story, her local school (primary) is c of E VA. She's not, and chose not to get baptised or go to church twice monthly. So now she will have to drive to her allocated school. So incidentally will many of the people who got in on religious grounds from way away. I really really would go to church for my dd to get into my local school, so I'm not criticising those who do, but I just don't think it should be necessary. Or that religious commitment should give you priority in a state school. And particularly that the vicar should not pretend for a minute that he (as he said in a newspapaper article) say that this is a school in the heart of the community serving all the children of the community.
I know, I know, some people might genuinely change through exposure to the church but I don't think it's the way for a church to expand its membership. sorry. and sorry it's so long.

YANBU. It's nonsense.

I completely agree.

Our local church school is massively oversubscribed. The criteria gives priority to children whose families worship at a church of england worship, if there are still places left priority is given to children who worship at any religious establishment. Last year a girl was admitted under the second criteria (she is jehovah witness) however because of her families faith they have withdrawn her from all assemblies and all class activities relating to christmas/easter etc. Whilst I respect any parents decision to do this I think it is out of order that she only obtained her place because of her religion. There are people that live much closer to the school but they didn't get in because they are not regular churchgoers although some of them do attend church occasionally.

i think if people want their children to go to a church school they should pay for it. i am lucky there are 5 excellent schools on my doorstep, but if you live in a small village and the only school is a church one what do you do if you dont agree with that/any religion?

does your friend live in a village ?
with only one school ? so she must have been aware of this before ?
did she chose to move to this village , knowingit only had one school ? or did she choose to conceive, whilst having lived here for a long time ?
seems unreasonable to complain about it now.

YANBU.

well, I think yabu. Having being edcuated in the catholic sector all my life and now teach in it, I feel that people of a certain religion have a right to have their children educated in that faith. Faith school are only partially funded by the government, and the rest is funded by the religious establishment, be it a Christian, Jewish, Muslim or other faith school. The land and the buildings are owned and maintained by the church. Parents contribute to a school fund to support maintance of the grounds and buildings so.....I believe that the church should be able to set their admissions criteria. Surely it is right that children of that faith should attend a school that supports it. Would you be willing to uphold the values and beliefs of a school that does not share your families beliefs? is it fair to put a child in a school environment when thew homelife is not supportive of what is being learned...and why should the faith schools automatically educate children of families who are not members of that faith community?

YANBU at all don't get me started.

Is a bloody nightmare round here.

Yep, school admissions aren't fair.

Our son got a place at a school by his name being picked out of a hat. (the 2 nearest school were full and we were 18th on the list on one and 13th on the other)
This school wasn't one we would have considered.

Our neighbour got an outstanding school when her son's name was picked out of the hat that she hadn't even chosen.

How's that fair?

"and why should the faith schools automatically educate children of families who are not members of that faith community?"

And why should non-members of that faith community fund a school to any degree if the school won't admit their children?

Can't help but agree Sidge...

Let the Church fully fund their schools and then they can let in whomever they choose surely?

am intrigued as to where you all live. there are 4 primaries in walking distance, for us.
i grew up in a village on dartmoor with no school. my parents chose to live there.
we all have choices about where we live.

If parents wish their child to be educated in a faith school then they are not taking places in non-faith schools and are paying tax towards those too surely?

I find it ridiculous when people say my child isn't eligible for a faith school so I shouldn't fund it. Then why should you fund girls schools if you only have boys or grammar schools if your child isn't bright enough to attend? Why should you fund education at all if you don't have children? I think people single out faith schools because they usually perform better. Usually because parents are more commited to the school in my opinion.

I live in swindon. When I bought my house there were 3 planned primary schools serving 3 new estates -all to be built and I had a 2 year old. 2 would be within walking distance for us. When it came to it they only actually built 2 of the 3 so places were limited hence you had 3 schools worth of children competing for 2 schools worth of places.

Due to how they open schools -let in anyone to get funding as schools are paid per pupil and then reduce the size of the catchment area once full -any child was let in so children came from out of catchment and when it came to applying for my child their siblings got in over my child even though we live 0.4 mile and .5 mile away from the school. We cannot get into our local schools as there are children who live further away taking my child's place.

Nothing we could do about it. When I phoned the LEA to ask how my son was alloted his school I was told that (she said 'between you, me and the gatepost...') once all the rules had been applied then all the names left over were put into a hat and allocated a school at random. Hence why my son got a crap school and my friend's son got an outstanding school that she didn't even put down as a choice on her form.

We have opted out of the stae system. Our choice so I'm not complaining but we will be moving as soon as we possibly can.

Oblomov - it's absurd to expect everyone to move house the moment they conceive. I live in inner London. There are 10 primary schools close to me, only one of which isn't faith-based. As an atheist, my children are discriminated against. I think we should have a system like France where the State and church are entirely separate. If you want to send your child to a catholic school, that's fine, but it's wrong to have free state education that penalises non-religious people

I feel that I shouldn't fund faith schools because my child is excluded from them by their own admissions criteria.

Yes, a parent may well be contributing tax-wise to non-faith schools but they have the choice to send their child to that school if they want to.

Not necessarily I think you will find if it is a good non-faith school as muppetgirl has described you will find it very difficult to get in because of eg siblings. Are boys not excluded from girls schools. Are local children not excluded from grammar schools?

the government should partially fund faith schools because they follow the government set national curriculum and are educating children in this country. Faith schools are generally hugely over subscribed because of their good results. They do accept children from other and non-faith backgrounds but offer places to their own faith first. My sister drives her children on a 20 mile round trip to their primary school. It is the only faith school in the area and as a dedicated practicing catholic family, her children deserve that place. Why should that place in that school go to a non-practicing person who happens to live closer?

It is different in different areas.

I live in a london borough where more than 50% of primary schools are decided on religious criteria. Schools are oversubscribed generally - last year there were many children who were not offered any place at all.

So your choices are:
Move to within catchment of a school
Discover a sudden interest in religion
Take your chances and cross your fingers, possibly with your eyes closed, and hope for the best

Re where to live - we bought a house before we had children so weren't thinking in terms of schools. I knew there were 3 primaries within easy walking distance so assumed that any DC could go to one of them. We are short walks away from both sets of grandparents and have lots of friends etc around which is why we live where we live. Our roots are here. And DH job and mine etc etc.

Of course once I had DD I looked into it and realised that she wouldn't get into any of the 3 in walking distance, and therefore possibly not any others in the borough either.

We could move away, but that seems a steep price to pay, the loss of easy access to friends and family. If we were buying now would we do it differently? Maybe.

It is also interesting to note that going to church in order to get your children into a school is the norm here. So any idea that it is faithful religious people going there is out of the window. Everyone, but everyone works the system. The alternative is a real possibility of no school place for your child.

Message withdrawn

I live in a 'village' but we are very close to a main town. It is a village in that there is a distinct community. Within the community there is an infant school (not VA) and a separate junior school (CofE VA). The infant school is excellent and we are fortunate in that the infants feeds straight into the juniors.

Our option beyond these schools is a state primary school. It's not an option because although it is withing walking distance it is oversubscribed as it serves another population located to the other side of it from my village.

There is one further school in walking distance but in a very different community, undersubscribed and not performing well.

My issue is that if I want to make the choice of the infant school, my closest and the one my children are likely to get into, I then have to accept going on to a CofE junior school or drive further away. Whilst this school is there the state isn't going to provide another school. So I don't have an effective choice.

I am glad I'm not alone. I have so many unfair and ill considered comments to make, unfair because it's the system that's at fault not the people who work within it. But the same people who either want or have to pretend they want an anglican education at primary level seem not to worry so much at secondary level because the local VA secondary is undersubscribed and unpopular. None of this is stuff I can openly say because I respect the friends who have jumped through the hoops to choose for their children. It's just sore at the mo to hear some celebrating when in order for their place to come through other friends of mine who wouldn't have their children baptised are now travelling silly distances. Local schools for local people. And once you're inside the CE system, the education isn't radically different from non C of E. In some ways the catholic system seems slightly different, but I might be wrong. In our area there are several local schools and one ios catholic. Also, the feel of the school is vastly different, with prayers before lessons etc. also the history of school provision is that most village schools were started by the church in a time when it was normal, expected even that everyone went to church. Times have changed and the system should too. Sorry long post.

I dont understand why you would want your child to go to a faith school if you are not of that faith. If you don't believe in God, why would you want your child going to a school where a daily act of Christian worship is normal? Surely you'd (all other things being equal) prefer a secular education?

If faith schools weren't getting such good results no-ne would care about this at all. I think parents have to be more honest about why they're getting into a tizz about it.

The points of other posters re children being excluded from other schools based on their admissions criteria (gender/ academic achievement) are valid and have not been addressed by anyone yet.

yanbu. It's shit. I don't blame anyone who takes up the appropriate religion for the sake of giving their child a good education if they can stomach it. Given the system, it's a reasonable thing to do (much as I curse daily the drivers of the tanks that park outside our front door at pick-up time because they've driven their children to the state funded Catholic school behind my house that my child is not eligible to attend).

But it is very very wrong for any state school to be allowed to operate with such a divisive and unfair admission policy.

Arctic fox that is not true - about people being honest why they are doing it. Please refer to my post for the reason it happens around here.

The schools that people are adopting religion aren't even necessarily that good. They're not bad, but they're not brilliant.

You need to understand that in some areas the choices are extremely unsatisfactory. I am not prepared to home ed and I don't see why I should have to when I have 3 perfectly reasonable (note not brilliant) schools near my house.

I think it is perfectly reasonable for faith schools have their own criteria. My children go to an excellent Catholic school and their priority is to provide education for children raised in that faith. The catholic church also contribute to funds as well as the government. We go to church a lot, my daughters are going through first holy communion and eventually confirmation and this will enable us to access a really good catholic high school in the future. I was not raised in the faith but practice now but my husband was.

I do feel as church goers and those participating in the church and community should have priority over those who do not. In our area lots of catholic children are not able to access a catholic education, not because there are not enough places but because there are also other criteria by which children gain entry. As I think someone else has mentioned, why would someone wnt their children to go a faith school unless they were part of that faith.

If you want to have access to this sort of education then have your children baptised, go to church and participate in the community. It really is that simple.