to think that schools admissions aren't fair

[picklepud]

This is different from saying that I wouldn't go through the system if my child's local school had religious criteria, but I am feeling a bit sad and up in arms for a friend today. Same old story, her local school (primary) is c of E VA. She's not, and chose not to get baptised or go to church twice monthly. So now she will have to drive to her allocated school. So incidentally will many of the people who got in on religious grounds from way away. I really really would go to church for my dd to get into my local school, so I'm not criticising those who do, but I just don't think it should be necessary. Or that religious commitment should give you priority in a state school. And particularly that the vicar should not pretend for a minute that he (as he said in a newspapaper article) say that this is a school in the heart of the community serving all the children of the community.
I know, I know, some people might genuinely change through exposure to the church but I don't think it's the way for a church to expand its membership. sorry. and sorry it's so long.

CalpurnicaTate they are not allowed to ask those questions and there was a study carried out into admissions - they picked two areas at random - and found many religious schools were breaking the rules. Asking for "donations" with applications, asking about parents education and so on. It was on the news I'll try to find a link for it.

One of the areas they picked was where i live no surprise there.

I think that the interesting thing with this debate is that how "bad" it is for people to find god for a school depends on where they live. If they are doing it to go to a school which is only marginally better than the other one, and they would get a place at the other one, then that is very annoying for the truly religious who live that bit further away and who therefore lose a place. In other areas where the consequences of not going to church are more dire, then it is easy to see why people do it.

schools break admissions codes

illegal admission fee

Sorry was 3 areas picked to be looked at, not 2.

Thank you thank you ImsoNotTelling ! I am already writing a letter. I was going to email them but I am not sure I want them to know who I am so I will do it anonymously. I knew it was dodgy.

Over a third of the schools in the top ten of our local secondary league tables are church schools, which there is no point us applying to as they are all over subscribed and we are not church goers.

I would like the government to stop funding these schools from our taxes, as they discriminate against children who are not religious.

Alternatively they should open up humanist or atheist schools, where you would only be able to gain entry for your child if you could prove you hadn't been to church in the past decade, and if you were happy to have your child indoctrinated in the belief that god doesn't exist!

So what criteria should schools admit pupils with?

I would like the government to stop funding these schools from our taxes, as they discriminate against children who are not religious.

That's a bit strong isn't it?

Calpurnica - That is awful, that is almost just consigning the children to achieve only as far as their parents have, no exactly social mobility - good for you for standing up to it

"I would like the govt. to stop funding these schools, as they discriminate against children who are not religious."

But they fund universities - and they discriminate on the grounds of academic ability. If I'm not bright, I can't go. But I'm still paying for it.

They also fund housing for the poor/unemployed - if I have my own money, I can't get a free flat, can I? But I'm still paying for it.

They fund IVF on the NHS - if I'm over a certain age they discriminate against me. I can't use that service either. But I'm still paying for it.

If I have no children at all, can I opt out of paying for education full stop? I'm not using it. But I'm still paying for it.

Get the idea?

It's called "society". Sometimes we pay for services we don't get to use ourselves. But it's good to know that everyone is catered for in their own way.

If you don't like faith schools, don't use them.

YABU - the school clearly set out its criteria - baptism and twice monthly attendance, not exactly massive commitment if that was the school she wanted.... your friend choose not to attend.

(However, as an aside, I do think its ridiculous that parents are allowed to choose a faith school and then take their children out of the RE lessons - faiths schools should be allowed to give priority to those who want their children to take part in all aspects of the school.)

My DC attend a VA faith school which has set the religious bar considerably higher than twice monthly service attendance. The admissions process was very intrusive. Further the RE is 40% of the timetable. If they let in people who did not practise the faith esp if they did not want to partipicate in the faith lessons it would change the nature of the school.

re: the state funding...what would happen in many cases is that illegal private schools are set up where all the instruction in faith based and the children don't even learn any english or maths... they then can't be productive members of society as they can't read or write in english. At least at a state school they have to dedicate 50% of the time to the national ciriculum (and the parents pay for the faith instruction).

The whole idea of faith schools is an absolute nonsense and the sooner the state stops funding them the better. I get cheesed off seeing primary school kids being privately chaffeur driven in a taxi, that picks them up from home, at the expense of my taxes, to the nearest Catholic school because its more than three miles away, when there is a perfectly good school at the end of their road. I choose to send my children to an out of area school for reasons I feel are as valid as anyone else's, but no-one sends my kids a taxi!

I do not believe that faith schools do better because of the faith they teach, but because they are largely colonised by middle-class parents from good areas, who believe that the demographic will be better on account of having to jump through hoops to be there. I am a middle class parent from a good area, and my kids go private, so I have no left wing axe to grind here, but I do think it's just another way of playing the system. It's devisive. People who truly care about their children's religious education should teach them at home and take them to worship regularly - not make it the responsibility of the state.

Two4One - all good points - it is important they we fund provision for children of all different backgrounds

re: the school that broke the code and asked for the £50 fine... also it was rubbish that it was a deposit for RE fees - we paid the money and did not get a credit, and those who were rejected did not get the money back...

However it was a couple of years ago and from what I understand now that this school is following the rules quite carefully.... however the same cannot necessarily be said for other jewish schools in Barnet, they are more sneaky!

eg one school (governors) interviews the parents offsite.... another school seems to give priority to parents who attend gala dinner charging £180 per couple....

YANBU. The system is monstrously unfair and often is nothing about religion and everything about class. I find it hard to believe that those people who miraculously find God 2 years before their child starts a faith school are genuine in their beliefs! From what I have seen in my area, the faith schools manage to make sure that only middle class children attend thus keeping up their stats/exam pass records. In my town there is a system where dozens and dozens of kids are bussed in from other counties and towns 20 miles away to attend the local C of E school but the kids on the council estate half a mile down the road are almost always not accepted. Funny that.

I cannot honestly see how anyone could describe that as fair.

"If you don't like faith schools, don't use them. "

Very simplistic in areas where there is no choice.

I would argue that there are far more faith schools in my area than there are genuinely religious people. And there are nowhere near enough community places.

As for this selection business, the selection criteria should be location. It is nonsensical for primary age children to be driven to schools miles away. It is polluting, bad for teh health of children and adults, means that children accept that car rather than foot is the natural means of transport, clogs up the roads and contributes to the thousands and thosands of deaths and serious injuries on our roads every year.

So scrap entrance criteria apart from distance.
Raise standards in schools across the board.
Stop publishing league tables - they cause far more harm than good.

YABU. I am Catholic but due to circumstances beyond my control find it hard - impossible mostly - to attend Church to their guideline amounts. I will be discriminated against because Mrs. SMith rocks up twice a month, child in tow, sitting in the front row even though it means nothing. The Church were the first people to fund Schools and as far as I am aware have not closed down a state school to open a church one. Besides, I pay my taxes , therefore I am funding this school. Nearly every parent of the Church school children pay taxes so have the right to send their child where they want. It all works out in the end.

Hello mumNWlondon we are fairly near each other i guess

I went to a C of E secondary and it was a very nice place to go. We went to church anyway but(as the local Grammar become a comp) it was quite obvious that some people discovered religion at the approprate time!

It was only when I drove by my old church on a Sunday that I realised why my school was such a nice place. I realised the obvious fact that I went to school with the children of church goers or at least people who were prepared to go to get their kids into the school! In other words, people who had a strong moral code and/or people who wanted the best for their children. The later group were prepared to go out of their way to get, what they considered, a better education.

From my own and my children's experience we need to acknowledge what makes a good school. It's not just the building and the teachers. More importantly, it's the type of families that go there!

I now find it hard to believe in God but I do recognise that religion does tend to give people a stonger moral code. Isn't that the sort of environment we all want for our children?

I don't agree with the point that faith school are attended by white middle classes - nearly all the primarys around here are c of e - these are failt schools too or are these seen as less religious than catholic schools? Our school is on the edge of a huge and quite notorious council estate - lots of the children there come from very impoverished backgrounds (there is a very high uptake of free school meals for instance) and there is also a very large immigrant population fromeastern europe - just happens they are catholics too. It is completely wrong to suggest that its all about class, the problem is and what people are objecting too is that it is all about religion.. something i do not have an issue with - being in a catholic school has enabled my children to meet other kids from all over the place and accross the social spectrum - they are mostly catholics thats all.

Good point lemonadedrinker we are indeed all paying for everything. But people who argue "I can't go, so why should I pay for YOUR schools" seem to forget that the parents sending their children to faith schools are also paying for non-faith schools. Without complaint.

alexfs, of course it is, but it is aoofensive to suggest that the only way to ensure our children have any morals is to teach them religion!

The school they went to before was a village school containging only very middle/upper class types becuase in that area houses start at 300k and there is no social housing whatsoever. This school did really well in the league tables as you can imagine but it was a much less rich experience from a demographic point of view because it was all the same sort of people - half the children were called toby or jessica for a start!

Two4One - because no one will pay for my schools.

And we live much more than 3 miles from our catholic school, we don't get a taxi..... must look into it eh?

It's not that simple to say "scrap church schools", it would take billions of tax payers money to replace church funding and buy the church real estate assets. Many schools are on prime sites in urban and village locations, so would demand a high price. Even if you do compulsory purchase, you still have to pay market value. The alternative is to build new schools, again not cheap & possibly they won't be as conveniently placed as current schools. I think there are better uses of tax payer's money ATM. I suppose another way of looking at it would be "would you be happy with 2p on the basic rate of income tax for the next 10 years (or whatever it might be) in order to convert church schools into secular ones?"

Even if you do all this, then all that will happen is that religious criteria will be replaced throughout by "parent's ability to be able to buy/rent a house in the right area" which is even worse IMO, at least religion is "free"

FWIW I support parental choice and a as (usually) weekly church attender I'm hoping that when my DDs school place comes through in March it is to the school attached to my church. I do acknowledge that in some areas there is insufficient choice & that needsto be addressed.