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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think that schools admissions aren't fair

729 replies

picklepud · 25/01/2010 18:58

This is different from saying that I wouldn't go through the system if my child's local school had religious criteria, but I am feeling a bit sad and up in arms for a friend today. Same old story, her local school (primary) is c of E VA. She's not, and chose not to get baptised or go to church twice monthly. So now she will have to drive to her allocated school. So incidentally will many of the people who got in on religious grounds from way away. I really really would go to church for my dd to get into my local school, so I'm not criticising those who do, but I just don't think it should be necessary. Or that religious commitment should give you priority in a state school. And particularly that the vicar should not pretend for a minute that he (as he said in a newspapaper article) say that this is a school in the heart of the community serving all the children of the community.
I know, I know, some people might genuinely change through exposure to the church but I don't think it's the way for a church to expand its membership. sorry. and sorry it's so long.

OP posts:
CalpurnicaTate · 26/01/2010 10:59

YANBU
The only secondary school in our city with
above 30% five GCSE pass rate is a church school. To get in you have to attend church for three years prior to admission. You have to have a letter from the church to say you have done so. Parents have to sign a register on arrival at church every week. If you miss a week you get a warning from the church reminding you that you need to attend to get into the school.

I know at least 20 atheist families attending church every week to get into this school. It is ridiculous.

SoupDragon · 26/01/2010 11:02

When DS1 approached primary school age, our choice was to discover religion or move. We moved and we were lucky enough to be able to afford to do so and to move to an area with good primary schools.

We are now approaching secondary and, whilst against the principle of private education, we are going down that route as an option.

Personally, I would not sacrifice my children's future for my principles if I am lucky enough to have other options.

CalpurnicaTate · 26/01/2010 11:03

Also, our church school asks your marital status and level of education on the entry form, does anybody know if this is allowed ? I think that is very odd.

lucyellensmummyisnotmad · 26/01/2010 11:04

My DD goes to a catholic school - it is the school i went to. Its a bit snobby tbh, but its the BEST school in the area - who wouldnt want that for their child?

Now, im a lapsed catholic, i don't go to church - I wasn't going to send DD to the school but my priest collared me when we buried my dad about having DD christened and educated at the school. I knew it was what my dad would have wanted. Anyway - for a while after we had DD christened we attended church every sunday, but DP and I were going through a bad patch and it sort of waned off after about 18m. DD woudlnt stay still etc etc. Not been back since, keep meaning to bl a bla bla.

I spent a worrying few months when applying for DDs school place because i wasn't a practising catholic. The priest rightly pointed it out to me and wrote it on our school form.

Thankfully she got a place, although i wonder if that was more due to catchment area to be honest. Also, the school, for all that it is by far the best local school, doesn't get particularly oversubscribed because people who are not catholic don't tend to bother to apply - i think the reason for this is that there is another very good school, which was my second choice. The problem being that this school IS oversubscribed and you've got no chance on a second choice application.

Ironically, the school i probably would have ended up with if i hadn't got DD into the catholic shcool would have not been my second choice because of the reason stated above, but a church of england school which has a shite reputation and is pretty much the school you send your kids to if you coudlnt care a shit or couldnt get into other schools.

lucyellensmummyisnotmad · 26/01/2010 11:05

Calpurnica Tate - that is outrageous!! However this was one time when i did use my Dr prefix, i never use it other than professionally otherwise - maybe thats why she got in . However, i am an unmarried mother!!! so maybe not

MrsVidic · 26/01/2010 11:06

I have 2 points- I am a regular church goer and want my dd to go to our church's school. My dd will know lots of children there having got to know them at Sunday school. A church is not a building but a community- the school included. I also want the school to celebrate Christian festivals without the PC brigade jumping on them.

Also if the 'poor' non faith schools get good children (as I'm sure yours will be) with parents like you who support and care about their children's education, then surley they will improve.

SoupDragon · 26/01/2010 11:06

But no, YANBU and school admissions are not fair. The closest secondary to us uses the following criteria:

  1. Looked after children
  2. Children from specified primary schools, the majority of which are further from the school than us
  3. 45 children who pass the entrance test
  4. Distance

So, despite living about 1 mile from this pretty good school, there is a chance my children wouldn't get in if every child in the feeder schools took up their guaranteed place. That is also unfair.

Having said that, there is no fair system. Someone will lose out somehow with whatever system is in place.

lucyellensmummyisnotmad · 26/01/2010 11:07

What i think is even more unfair than Catholic schools is the whole thing of catchment area - so those with money will buy housing in the area of the better schools. This pushes up the value of the housing and prevents people on lower incomes (like myself) from living in that area. At least with the catholic school religeon, you have a choice - go to church if you want your child educated in a church school - its not THAT bad going to church (even though i didn't)and it might actually do you some good as a family.

StayingDavidTennantsGirl · 26/01/2010 11:10

OP - has anyone asked if your friend's dc might be entitled to free school transport? Round here, you get a school bus if you are more than a mile from the primary school (which we didn't find out until ds3 went up to senior school - grr), so that might help her.

Original poster
picklepud · 26/01/2010 11:12

maybe a need for ongoing commitment to the church/faith of the school might be needed? Might be suggesting something difficult to enforce, but would sort out the genuinely committed from the "until the letter" arrives committed.

OP posts:
CalpurnicaTate · 26/01/2010 11:12

lucy It is outrageous isn't it ! I have been told they cannot select on this basis. However, if that is the case why do they ask ? Like yours my daughter would be at an advantage but it makes me feel sick that that is the case.

ZephirineDrouhin · 26/01/2010 11:13

lucyellensmum, it's irrelevant whether it's "that bad" going to church on Sunday. You have to make a public declaration of belief when you have your child baptised. If you are happy to make such a declaration falsely, that's up to you. Some people are, some aren't. But a system which actively rewards people for doing so is wrong.

BetsyBoop · 26/01/2010 11:15

CT

they are definitely NOT allowed to ask that

schools admission code para 1.78

CalpurnicaTate · 26/01/2010 11:17

Thanks Betsy that is very interesting I will write them a letter.

CalpurnicaTate · 26/01/2010 11:20

Zephire that is a really good point. My 10 year old dd summed it up this way

"So basically, the church is rewarding liars which doesn't seem very christian really"

NoahAndTheWhale · 26/01/2010 11:22

Am being bad by not reading whole thread (but will do so later).

Not all VA schools will restrict entry to children who are baptised by any means. The school in the village next to us is VA and its first three admission criteria are:

  1. All ?looked after? children (see definition)

  1. Pupils living in the X catchment area with siblings at the school (see
    definitions of home address and siblings)

  2. Other pupils living in the catchment area;

It isn't until point 6 that church attendance is mentioned at all.

babybarrister · 26/01/2010 11:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lucyellensmummyisnotmad · 26/01/2010 11:25

I absolutely would never have my child falsely baptised, what a horrible thing to say I am a cotholic, albeit lapsed, however I am still a catholic, maybe you have heard the saying "once a catholic........" Just because i am too lazy to go to church doesn't mean im a non-believer. The not "that bad" comment was supposed to be light hearted.

thing is, i suppose - if i wasn't a catholic and didn't believe in God i wouldn't care about the comment - iyswim.

My DP made me laugh the other day though - DD was a bit late and i said to him "oh bloody hell, we were late, we arrived in the middle of prayers" he was prayers? I said, well yes,its a CATHOLIC school remember.

Another reason for my wanting DD to go to a catholic school is BECAUSE i am lazy about going to church - a bit rubbish about my knowledge etc, but i want DD to know about this stuff. Being raised a catholic has done me fine - if its good enough for me.....

ZephirineDrouhin · 26/01/2010 11:29

Sorry lem - I shouldn't have used the word falsely. Am a lapsed Catholic too so do understand that it is a complex issue. I am not good with "light hearted" comments on this subject at the moment. My apologies.

RockbirdandHerSpork · 26/01/2010 11:32

We do pay for it. Through our taxes, y'know, the ones everyone always bleats on about when they want to get into the church schools? Well hey, we pay them too and are entitled to have our children educated in whatever way we want. Secondly, certainly in the Catholic church, the church that is linked to the school contributes a fair amount to it. So I will be paying for dd's place through my taxes and through the money I give to the church.

And now I'm hiding this, because these threads piss me off in a way that even bf/ff fails to.

ZephirineDrouhin · 26/01/2010 11:35

They piss me off too, Rockbird. The money contributed by the church is a tiny amount compared with the funding provided by the state. Certainly not enough to warrant the effective exclusion of the majority of the local community.

lucyellensmummyisnotmad · 26/01/2010 11:49

yep - they piss me off too rockbird, i'll hide it too.

No worries Zep - religeon is probably too touchy a subject for "light hearted" comments

Original poster
picklepud · 26/01/2010 11:49

should i start another thread for the debate about faith schools and their funding?

OP posts:
CaptainNancy · 26/01/2010 11:54

Rockbird- the church contributes 10% only.

Yes- you are entitled to have your child educated however you want- you can PAY for independent schooling just as other parents who want their child educated in the way they want do. (oh yes- on top of their taxes.)

State schools should not be able to admit based on criteria such as religion or wealth. If we are going to fund state faith schools, there should at least also be the option of state secular schools.

ZephirineDrouhin · 26/01/2010 12:01

Yes LEM. Although it's not religion itself that's too touchy a subject for light hearted comments, it is the particular combination of religion and education under the system we have now. Having spent many many months wrestling with my own conscience over this issue and finally deciding that it would not be possible for me to make the necessary vows, then looking at the way that the local community has been divided into those who are (or profess to be) Catholic and those who are not, and seeing the different prospects for the two groups, I'm afraid I have a total sense of humour failure over comments on here like "it really is that simple" or "it's not that bad going to church".