to think that schools admissions aren't fair

[picklepud]

This is different from saying that I wouldn't go through the system if my child's local school had religious criteria, but I am feeling a bit sad and up in arms for a friend today. Same old story, her local school (primary) is c of E VA. She's not, and chose not to get baptised or go to church twice monthly. So now she will have to drive to her allocated school. So incidentally will many of the people who got in on religious grounds from way away. I really really would go to church for my dd to get into my local school, so I'm not criticising those who do, but I just don't think it should be necessary. Or that religious commitment should give you priority in a state school. And particularly that the vicar should not pretend for a minute that he (as he said in a newspapaper article) say that this is a school in the heart of the community serving all the children of the community.
I know, I know, some people might genuinely change through exposure to the church but I don't think it's the way for a church to expand its membership. sorry. and sorry it's so long.

So, CofE are protestant and RC are catholic
yes

no the CofE aren't "protestant", but both "catholic" and "reformed", however that's a long story going back to the reformation of the C16th...

err yes I didn't make my point very clear did I?

In term of this thread then, i think it ill behoves the discrimination supporters to try to shift the blame on to those parents who "lie/adopt a new church" to get into a high-performing faith school since the parents, even if atheist/humanist, know their children are going to be indoctrinated into Christianity wherever they go. Their position is already compromised.

Again, I think the Church and State are responsible and should get rid of the discrimination by faith, the Church because it is supposed to practice Christianity, the State because it should not be encouraging higher transport costs and discrimination based on religious affiliation.

sorry, by transport costs I meant in terms of costs to the environment/carbon footprint etc.

Grimmathenome thank you for your posting...it was very helpful.

My DC are not yet at school so I am expecting to have to go to appeal in due course.

Does anyone else have any take on whether there are legal obligations on LA to offer non-faith based school within a catchment?

(BTW, interestingly heard news today of first state Hindu school opening in London - and I thought genuinely "Great!"..again as a Christian ).

Lingle ? sorry if my hypothetical example was confusing, from what you?ve said I think we?re actually in agreement.

As Grimma said, the point of the atheist school example was hypothetical.

I wasn?t criticising the parents who jumped through the hoops to get their child into the better of two schools.

I meant that it was utterly absurd and unfair to put people in the position of making it strongly in their interests to pretend to be something they are not, whether it be a believer or a non-believer.

I?m aware that all state schools have to do the daily collective act of Christian worship (although I didn?t know that till a few weeks ago) and am staggered by that absurdity as well.

Pushka, I don't know about the legalities, but you might consider contacting the BHA for advice. I don't think they are overly bothered by whether people classify themselves as 'humanist' or not, and they've got experience in this sort of area.

Pushka - just saw your comment on the first Hindu school opening in London - and funnily as a Hindu it is makes me genuinely sad.

I don't think that we as an ethnic group should be aiming to add to the segregation that already exists in society, although I can see where the temptation comes from.

The Hindu schools will have exactly the same issues with how parents "prove" their faith as Christian schools do now. In many ways, it will be harder to select on faith for Hindus than other religions. There is no equivalent of baptism and you can be a perfectly good Hindu without ever setting foot in a temple. My grandmother is very devout and prays every day at home. She probably hasn't set foot in a temple in ten years. Equally my mother is religious, but again, her temple going is infrequent at best. Worshipping at home is a major part of our religion. I noticed that strict vegetarianism is likely to be an entry requirement. How on earth do you prove that?

In many ways I would love for my children to go to a Hindu school but I don't think it is at all positive for society to segregate our children in this way. (And I'd find it quite hypocritical to "refind" my faith just to get my children into a school.)

yes cider we are in agreement. It's a cop-out to blame the "lying" parents.

Happy smiley - I do agree with your personal view allbeit from a Christian perspective (IYSWIM)!

Though I do think that there ought to be the choice - this thread has flushed out some really interesting thoughts - and I think has shown, with more than 700 posts, that the current system does not really support an inclusive, pro-choice system...for whichever part of the religious spectrum.

"I now find it hard to believe in God but I do recognise that religion does tend to give people a stonger moral code. Isn't that the sort of environment we all want for our children?"

Yes, slug: I don't want a school that gives my DD a moral code. I'd much rather the school encouraged thinking for herself about ethical issues.

spot on GrimmaTheNome (I like your name btw ).

Evening, I think I'm done, really done with ahat I have to say on all this! Thank you again for the quality of arguments and the way the posters have conducted themselves. Mumsnet at its best? From the feel of the last few posts, is the debate taking a natural turn towards debating the relevance and rightness of faith schools themselves? Would it be worth starting a new thread so that all could join in on that issue? Sorry if it's none of my business to suggest that - I'm not trying to make myself chair of the debate or anything. Otherwise cheerio and carry on!

pickle: well, you could start another thread but that's more likely to get re-airings of entrenched positions. Though maybe if you start it, it might fare better than the norm - it'd be nice to have that debate generating more light than heat for a change

Slightly off topic... I was linked to a cvary small petition for secular schools on the government website atm: petitions.number10.gov.uk/secularschools/ Might be of interest to some people who wouldn't have seen it otherwise.

pickle, I think this thread has gone so well because it was started by someone who cares dearly about their faith. If you start a thread on the validity of faith schools in themselves, I think it will equally enlightening. I look forward to it!

Yes I'd be happy to debate the issues surrounding faith schools - I've not been involved in the previous ones so it would be a first for me, anyway!

At the end of the day, all our children are precious and we want the very best for all of them.

In my immediate very large family we have children who go to state schools, church schools, private C of E grammar schools, home schooled. But do you know what? When all these children come together at family functions you could line them all up and it would be impossible to pick which child goes to which school.

It truely does come down to the home environment.So if your child doesn't get into the school of choice, stay positive and seek out like minded people at the school and if you don't like what goes on at the school try to make positive changes.

At the end of their school days, they all end up at the same universities anyway.

Sorry, I beg to differ. My brother and I went to independent schools, our cousins went to the local comprehensive. We went to university and into professional careers and my cousins didn't. We earn many multiples of what our cousins do, and we live in better areas, etc etc. I think school does matter - we were taught to be more ambitious. I think there are equivalent levels of happiness on both sides, by the way.

As I said Boffinmum, in the end it comes down to the home environment. It sounds as though you are giving all the credit for your success to the school you attended. Yes ,school does matter but it is not the be all and end all. Where do your parents fit in the equation?

Both my children have been very successful in life. Yes they both attended private single sex schools. But they are in no way any better than any of their cousins.

One of their cousins atended a selective state high school and is now working in Washington as an intern to a US Senator.

He obtained a PHD in political science by the age of 24.

Out of 24 cousins in our family only 2 did not attend university but went into trades.

Have you ever had to call out a plumber or electrician. That's where the big money is these days.

I know families who have sent their children to private schools and then sat back and expected the school to do everything. It just doesn't work. Strong family values have to be there for the child to reach their full potential no matter what their schooling background is.

I am not sure the big money is in electrical work or plumbing - my BIL is a plumber (having retrained) and has not found that to be the case at all. Also there is little in the way of welfare benefits and no pension either. A secure professional job brings a lot more benefits with it in the form of occupational pension, sick pay, paid holidays, etc.

I think I might leave the faith school thing to someone else! Thanks for the lovely comments. Couldn't resist popping in! And just so's you know, I consider myself to be a lucky ex teacher SAHM married to a very lucky teacher. And between us we attended faith, non faith, independent, state schools. But you'll just have to guess how I define success cos otherwise I'll get all passionate about that too.

Thank you team for a really rather wonderful thread! Look forward to picklepuds " What is success?"

After failing to obtain a place in any of our chosen high schools even after a successful entrance exam result our daughter has no school to start in September.
Her position on the ability waiting list is 25,does she have a realistic chance of being offered a place? Someone please advise,thanx.