to think that schools admissions aren't fair

[picklepud]

This is different from saying that I wouldn't go through the system if my child's local school had religious criteria, but I am feeling a bit sad and up in arms for a friend today. Same old story, her local school (primary) is c of E VA. She's not, and chose not to get baptised or go to church twice monthly. So now she will have to drive to her allocated school. So incidentally will many of the people who got in on religious grounds from way away. I really really would go to church for my dd to get into my local school, so I'm not criticising those who do, but I just don't think it should be necessary. Or that religious commitment should give you priority in a state school. And particularly that the vicar should not pretend for a minute that he (as he said in a newspapaper article) say that this is a school in the heart of the community serving all the children of the community.
I know, I know, some people might genuinely change through exposure to the church but I don't think it's the way for a church to expand its membership. sorry. and sorry it's so long.

two4one OK then.

I have 3 primaries in walking distance, if I do not start going to church DD will not be able to go to any of them.

In fact, if i do not start attending church, there is a good chance she will end up wihtout a school place at all.

Does that help?

Good post UnquietDad.

amicissima Love it! I dare you to post that as a thread all by itself - go on - do it!!!! The puffy chest brigade will explode.

Two4One - I don't think he has done anything of the sort. He is absolutely right. The assumption from so many religious parents is that it is essential for children to be taught the religion of their parents' choice in school, in order for them to be able to grasp morality, decency,kindness and compassion. (notice I didn;t add tolerance there is just tripe. And offensive to non-religious people who strive to give their children a very strong sense of morality.

NotTelling I am genuinely amazed to hear that you are surrounded by faith schools. I'm thinking about where I live and am pretty sure there's only one close by. How far would you have to walk to get to the other 2?

amicissima, I don't think the argument is 'I pay my taxes for it' as much as it is 'schools that are funded by the taxpayer should serve their local community first and foremost'.

How much each of us pay is totally irrelevant.

The system is utterly crazy. European friends cannot understand the twisty muddles we get into over education. In the bit of Switzerland our friends live in there the local schools which are are all of a similar standard, you attend the nearest one. End of. The whole faith school concept is outrageous in my opinion - second unquietdad for reasoning.

So what criteria should schools discriminate on then?

Completely agree, UnquietDad. Same goes for ImSoNotTelling.

The bit that a lot of people forget is just how many CofE school there are out there compared to non-faith schools. I've lived in a wide range of areas in my county (Kent) and all, I repeat ALL are stuffed with the CofE type school.

I went to six different schools while growing up. Most were CofE, and some were the only school in the area. (We moved a lot following my parent's divorce.) When we eventually settled down in the area I live in now, my mum placed me and my younger siblings in a school she later removed my brother and sister from as it was so appalling. Surprise surprise, it was the only non-faith school I attended, aside from my secondary school.

The fact is, there often isn't a choice between faith and non-faith; it's a choice between one faith school and another faith school. Great, I'm sure the government loves the fact that they're all slightly subsidised, but as people have said, where is the fairness for the large proportion of the population who are not religious?

My secondary school (to answer a much earlier poster) was an all-girls grammar school. Is that fair? Well, arguably, yes. There is an all-boys grammar school in the same town, so no gender discrimination there, and there are a good six or seven secondary schools in the area. If we're going to allow schools to discriminate on the arbitrary basis of the parents religious fancies, then why not allow those children who have academic potential to make the most of it.

In a truly fair society, all primary schools would have good enough teachers that this would be moot point. But that's not the case. Perhaps we should be fighting for an improvement in the quality of the people shaping our children's lives overall; then this would cease to be an issue.

Really TiggyR? I've never once heard anyone make that assumption. How odd. Has someone actually said this to you?

Or do you just imagine it's what they would say...

I bet if you really studied this you'd find out that most people (Catholics anyway) just send their kids to faith schools to be "with their own kind". A cultural thing. Jews, Muslims, CofE, Catholics... BTW, I don't have any children at all - yet - so don't start putting me in a box. What I do know already though is that I won't object at all to paying for you to send your children to a non-faith school.

Live and let live, that's what I say.

Every time this subject comes up people trot out the morality argument, even people who admit to not being religious say they think their children be instilled with a better sense of marality and community and social conscience at a faith school! Obviously it's not something I can prove, and provide as evidence, but it happens all the time.

I'm just amazed that everyone seems to live in an area of "all" faith schools, given that they only make up about 25% of the total nationwide (if memory serves me right).

Even then half of the CofE schools are "voluntary controlled" anyway meaning they have their admissions controlled by the council and use standard community school criteria of children in care, SN, siblings, distance etc as their admissions criteria. It is only Voluntary Aided schools who have "religious" criteria.

TiggyR - I don't think that this is right - school is a small part of education really - doesn't matter what school says if your homelife is morally bankrupt. I think as a non religious person you are saying what you think about how religious people think - honestly in my experience i have never come accros anyone that holds this kind of belief

Two4One, you are really not getting this.

Non-faith schools do not discriminate in any way against the children of churchgoers. You have the option to apply for any of your local non-faith schools on the same grounds as everyone else.

Those faith schools that give priority to baptised children of regular churchgoers are discriminating against everyone else in the local community. That is why it is wrong.

A much fairer and less divisive system would be to ensure that faith schools use the same admissions policies as community schools with places allocated by the borough on equal terms.

Is it so bad if they do think that way? Faith schools must have something going for them otherwise parents wouldn't be climbing the walls to get their DCs into them.

amicissima
Surely the natural progression of the "I should be able to use that school because my taxes pay for it, even though I don't agree with its ethos" argument is that higher-rate tax payers should have first choice of school places because they pay more for them!

That's a jolly good point actually and you are right - is the logical progression of that argument

"TiggyR - I don't think that this is right - school is a small part of education really - doesn't matter what school says if your homelife is morally bankrupt. I think as a non religious person you are saying what you think about how religious people think - honestly in my experience i have never come accros anyone that holds this kind of belief"

ditto, I couldn't have put it better myself

A Strike for Two4One - excellent point

There are no non faith schools in the UK. Insofar as every school including community schools have to have a daily act of collective worship, which is broadly christian in nature unless the majority of students are of a different faith.

Two4one you are getting me mixed up with another poster, there are 3 schools in walking distance, and she won't get into any of them.

Two4One, I think the point you're missing is that in quite a few areas, as people have said, they're climbing the walls to get in as there is no other school.

In a situation where I either have to bend over backwards to pretend I'm religious in order for my children to get into a school or they don't get to go to school at all, what do you think I would do? But that doesn't make it in any way a right thing to have to do.

Equally, if you have a state school with failing teachers and a track record for poor results, and a faith school (who are clearly fussier about their teachers) who offer a chance for your child to succeed as long as you pretend to be religious, are you going to just send your child off to a school which will fail them, or will you do the best you can, even if that means lying for them?

In both of those situations, the system is wrong. Plain wrong.

tsc - "and surely if all these people who live close to shit schools sent their kids their rather than trying to lie/jump through hoops into faith/over subscribed schools in the next town/village standards would rise? "

Yes. Which ties in nicely with a comment dilemma made earlier about her local school - "Ofsted report says "children start at or slightly below the national average and for the most part finish below the national average". So they are dealing with the hand they've been dealt. And dealing with it OK when you consider children below the national average demand more in terms of time and resources. If all the 'nice mc' families started to take up places at less obviously desirable schools, they might have a hope in hhell of improving their results and the life chances of all local children. But I don't expect I'll see flying pigs anytimes soon.

Going to catch up but just wanted to say to betsyboop that in my borough, of the 73 primary schools, 42 have religious entry criteria.

So are you all saying that faith schools generally get better results?

Or 57%

I'm interested by highheels' idea that the faith school provides "common ground which may not be found another way". Forgive me, but I don't get that. If it is exclusive to one faith, it is not common ground.

And if you want common religious ground, you get it by going to church, chapel, temple or synagogue. I'm not going to stop anybody from doing that, as long as I don't particularly have to know about it. It doesn't affect my life. But having local schools with faith-based entry criteria does affect everyone.

It's like - and I have lost count of how often this comes up, and how often I have drawn this comparison - schools for particular football teams, or for Star Trek fans.