To want to adopt a child from Haitai?

[booyou]

Well....just that really. We have discussed adopting a child in the future and there are up to 1 million oprhans or one parent has died.... would like to help....

I don't claim to have the answers, sadly. I would take religion out of social services completely and I would not accept references from priests or other clergypeople. They are not unbiased and what on earth do they know about parenting???

But I don't have answers.

"I still strongly believe that adopting from Haiti is very undesirable"

so do I KT, if you read my posts and I don't think there's an adopter (intercountry or UK) who has commented on this thread who thinks adopting in the aftermath of a disaster is a good idea for any number of reasons.

My comment about UK adoptions came from being told very clearly that it wasn;t really an option for me BY MY LOCAL COUNCIL ADOPTION TEAM! It wasn't that overseas was easier it was the only option available to me unless I was prepared to consider an older girl who had been sexually abused so they wouldn't want to place her in a home with a man in residence. Apart from that they had enough adopters who were more perfect than me. I said I would be prepared to consider a child of any ethnic background and with some additional needs. But no chance. Not even a mixed race child

Of course its a terrible failing in me that I felt as an untried parent unable to deal with the challenges an older sexually abused child might bring and I have to live with that. And there are those who might say well why should I be allowed to adopt a child form any country as an older (ie 40!) single parent but I now have friends with children the same age as my DS who (for completely) different reasons find themselves in exactly my position and no-one seems to think they are so very terrible parents for their DC's to have.

Beleive me KT, no-one is more aware of the the difficulties of raising a child outside their birth culture than a parent who is doing it. But whenever I think of it sadly (which I do often) I remember the rows and rows of beds in the baby-house with about a foot of space all around, the piles of clothes being put on each child in turn, whatever came off the pile next regardless of size. I think of the transition the childrne make to the childrens home for 7-16 year olds which are rife with bullying and if I'm honest I sleep soundly in my bed at night knowing that DS will not have that fate.

It matters not one jot to me that he wasn't born in the UK. He didn't chose where he was born. I didn't adopt to save a child but because (like most parents) I wanted a family but none the less as a result there is one less child being raised without a family in the world. Which is more than most people can say about their families.

I'm very interested in what loopholes there are Rhubarb - preferably ones since UK adoption law relating to overseas adoptions changed. Genuinely I'm interested, as I've only ever heard of one which is of such limited practical use that I haven't able to seriously recommend it to anyone.

KT said: "Personally this was never an option for me because I could not live with taking a child away from their culture"

I'll let journalist Carol Sarler answer that one for me. She writes "Pundit after pundit drones on about the perils of 'snatching' children from their 'culture'. To that I say, go and stand in the poorest orphanages of the world's most dispossessed; look, sniff, smell and don't - don't you dare - tell me that, in such a context, the word 'culture' is other than an obscenity. Any identity problems the child might develop are risibly slight beside the certain problems that would otherwise have been their lot".

I have read through all of this. I am an adopter of a little boy who was battered and crumpled by his birth parents. That first picture of Daniel is very much the look in my son's eyes in a lot of photos post removal. Happily that look has gone, just as it has for Daniel.

Wherever you adopt from, hopefully you are well prepared for the trauma your child has experienced, and the lifelong impact this will have. The severing of the bond with the mother no matter how cruel she has been, or how short a period she has the child for causes a grief and real pain for these children, so much so that it can affect how they allow themselves to attach to others.
As has already been posted, we adopters know that the ideal lives for our children is to keep them in their families in their countries in their cultures, but these children do not have ideal lives. I know as much as it breaks my heart that my little boy's life would have been ideal if he had been left with a birth mother who would love him, care for him keep him safe and not harm a hair on his head. That wasn't what he got-and to be honest her life wasn't much different so birth relatives to care for him were unrealistic, so what is someone like Rhubarb suggest should he have been left in that cruel and unsafe environment because that was where he was born?
And in much the same way, a child born in a country where their parents cannot or will not take care of them, where for a number of reasons their care homes cannot offer them the care and bonding a child needs, do we leave them to be raised in an institution because someone far removed from being an adopter decided that was the right thing to do?
I was very uncomfortable with Madona's adoption of Mercy (hiding her away to stop her birth father seeing her before a judge ruled in her favour) and her adoption of David. She plucked out children who had families who said they would have cared for them but for money, she went to a country that forbade International Adoptions- if she wanted a child she could have "chosen" a different one and sponsored the communities of David and Mercy.
But where adopters are allocated or offered children who are in need of a parent, then who has the right to say that child does not deserve to be raised and loved by someone who wants them, who can share their heritage, work hard to repair their wounds?
To everyone who says adopt from here- we did yes, but we also considered adopting from abroad. Our Local Authority said we were too young, and I hadn't worked for long enough - we fortunately found a more sensible LA, but the truth is their is no consistency amongst LAs so a person who might be approved in Liverpool might be rejected in London and spend years going through the process in Cardiff.
If I told the OP my son's life story she might just be inclined to post AIBU to want to adopt an abused and tortured baby?
There is a primitive instinct in us all to want to nurture and protect, and when we come across stories of children suffering that instinct is heightened. It doesn't mean adoption is right for that person, just that they are having a normal human reaction to an event.

With all due respect Rhubarb your idea of an adopter is out of touch with the process that we have to go through to adopt from here or abroad, and before you make sweeping attacks of parents on here you should perhaps better aquaint yourself with what they went through to adopt at all.

Last post for me on this subject in case someone says it's my 'hobby horse' again.

Loopholes - catholicism. Hand on heard if you went to church every Sunday and know your priest well, that is enough to get you a child from overseas or anywhere you like. They shouldn't have that much power but they do. They choose people symathetic to the catholic church to make the decisions, it's like being in the Masons. Only the catholic social services would allow damaged teenage boys to be fostered by a couple in their 70s and for one of the boys to share a room with a 34 year old man with severe learning difficulties.

These countries should be held accountable for their own child protection policies. There are hundreds of couples in China whose only child has left the nest and who are willing to adopt or foster, but there wasn't an adequate system in place to get that up and running - Chinese people didn't even know they could do that. The Government needs to spend more time and money setting up local adoption agencies and improving orphanages.

As for the appauling conditions - I could say the same about some childrens homes here in the UK where children are abused and bullied.

The adoption system in this country is not right, they refuse perfectly good parents and let obviously disturbed or manic people adopt instead. It needs a bloody good shake good and catholic social services needs to be dissolved.

I don't have an answer for your desire to have a child. I don't have that desire so for me to say anything to that wouldn't come out right at all.

I would only ask that you support the charities who work with these children still in these orphanages, that you support the campaign for local adoptions as you must surely see that for the child to be adopted locally is more ideal that taking it abroad - or do you not?

Like I said Rhubarb rather than church bash and parent bash go and take a good hard look at what you need to do just to be approved to adopt-the assessment in some ways even penalises you for religious beliefs ours were a mountain to climb. I really can only think you are being a troll on this subject.

"I would only ask that you support the charities who work with these children still in these orphanages, that you support the campaign for local adoptions as you must surely see that for the child to be adopted locally is more ideal that taking it abroad - or do you not?"

You obviously haven't read the posts that various adopters have written supporting all of these things. Trying to discuss this with you is like wading through treacle. I don;t campaign for intercountry adoption, and quite often advise people to continue TTC rather than adopt due to the difficulties involved. There is at least one birth child more in existence rather than an existing child adopted because of advice I have given. How sad is that? I also don't promote intercountry adoption over UK adoption - I give people straightforward facts and let them make their own decisions (something you seems unwilling to do). I only start banging on about intercountry adoptions when its attacked and equated to child trafficking.

In fact I find it rather insulting that you are exhorting me to support charities that work with orphanages - I give money directly as it happens and with fellow parents have contributed money to support the children in DS's babyhouse who are unlikely to ever be adopted due to extreme physical or mental handicaps. I put my hand deeply in my pocket to a degree that I couldn't really afford and went out personally with a member of the baby-house staff to buy what they needed - 100% went to the children - no cut to charity overheads.

The catholic church may be a loophole in the UK but I'm not aware that they have any influence at all in any of the countries currently open to intercountry adoption. The rules in the country are not so easily bent - most countries have age restrictions and health restrictions and most have a bedroom per child restriction. I have met many intercountry adopters - probably quite a significant proportion of the total given how low the overall numbers are and have never met one in their 70's, or one where the children share a bedroom with anyone other than a same sex age appropriate sibling. So whomever these exceptions are they are keeping themselves pretty well hidden. Unless of course you are talking about UK adoptions - which you were previously exhorting us towards, away from the iniquity of intercountry adoption?

The whole outrage intercountry adoptions generates in this country makes me laugh when I think how rare they are. Do you know how many applications there were in 2008? 225. From the whole of the UK and thats applications, not successful adoptions and that include family adoptions. DO you know how many people applied to adopt from China? 32. Do you know how many people worldwide are waiting to be matched with children from China. 30,000. 30,000 - with a potential wait of over 5 years. Do you know why the waiting list is so high? Because there are fewer healthy babies being abandoned and more local adoptions. Not because of any charity work or tub-thumping by westerners but simply because prosperity is increasing in China.

At the risk of repeating myself - yeah right intercountry adoption really is the easy way out

Kew, I wasn't directly that at you personally. I was talking generally.

Yes I also feel like I am wading through treacle. Of course the catholic church has influences in other countries! Of course it does! Romania, Italy, large swathes of Africa, Haiti, Croatia etc. I hate to come over all Dan Brown here but their influence really is frightening.

I'm not an adoption advocator. Of course I would rather see children stay in their country of birth and I would rather this country make it easier for couples like yourself to adopt a UK child rather than forcing you to go abroad.

I'm pleased the waiting list for a Chinese child is so long - but I don't think prosperity has anything to do with it. I think there are better services out there now and that is largely thanks to groups such as Amnesty and other organisations that have put pressure on the government. The one-child policy remains intact, no amount of prosperity will change that.

I think I've shared quite a lot of personal information with you here as to why my opinions have formed the way they have. If you disagree with me still that's fine, I never expected to change your mind on this. But asking me to keep going over info I've already stated posts earlier is getting us nowhere. Did you read the link from the University of Liverpool? Do you disagree with their study? How about the Unicef report and their criticisms of fast-track adoptions - or is someone still going to tell me that there isn't a problem there?

My point about the church was that if they allow MY mother - yes more personal information thanksverymuch to foster teens when she is in her 70s, and allow those teens to share a room with MY brother who has severe learing difficulties, if they allow MY sister to adopt when she shouldn't have passed any of the criteria at all - where is the strictness?

You said the UK adoption laws were strict and that in order to adopt from abroad you had to be passed for adoption in the UK first. I'm pointing out the loophole you asked for, that if you happen to be a member of an influential religion, those rules can be bent. So if you are given the OK to adopt, then it is possible to bring a child in from abroad is it not?

I've provided what you asked for, at my own personal expense (or my family's in any case).

Yes I still think international adoption is NOT the answer and I don't like to see it happen.

The Catholic church is not a loophole in the UK- it no longer even has any adoption agencies, and does not approve adopters for International Adoption. How can it be a loop hole.
Your family's experience Rhubarb is out of date. It is not a reflection of how adoption is now.

I'm sorry but as far as I'm aware catholic social services is still going strong. here

My mother still fosters teenage boys. My sister adopted her youngest 13 years ago even though at the time social services knew she was struggling with her first, but again the church pulled strings.

They have connections in China and all over the world. So if you are approved for adoption by the catholic church, what is to stop you adopting from abroad?

UK law Rhubarb-UK law.

UK law is supposed to cover UK adoption too. So how come the church can get round it?

To adopt a child from abroad you need to first be approved for adoption in your own country right? So catholic social services approve you for adoption - you can then adopt a child from abroad. The only stipulation the church has is that you adopt a child from a catholic family and that you raise it as a catholic.

Kew I'm seriously not arguing with you. You have made some very valid points which I have taken on board and I have already explained that I have taken your views on board to the point where they have helped me to see the bigger picture and change my views. I admire and respect you for the choices you have made. I am sure you are an excellent mother to your ds and that being adopted by you has made a huge positive difference to his life.
I was merely trying to understand a point you made earlier which I thought had been misunderstood by someone else.
"which I am sure you were not saying" means I was supporting your point of view but seeking clarification

The reason I mentioned Haiti again was only because that is the title of this thread, I was just trying to bring it back on topic. I never meant to imply that you agreed with the idea of adopting in the aftermath of a huge disaster.

I only mentioned the fact that my 2 dds were from the UK in response to rhubarb and other, earlier, posters on this thread. That was not directed at you. Silver1 made the same point "To everyone who says adopt from here- we did yes". I am sure that was not directed at you either. All I explained was that intercountry adoption was not something I saw myself doing, (i.e. its a personal choice) I also said "it takes a braver person than me to go through an intercountry adoption". I have been trying to support you Kew. I know you have been personally attacked on this thread but I have not done that.

RebeccaRabbit I have explained my personal choice. I have not criticised you for your personal choice. (The personal opinions of journalists are interesting but no more valid than anyone elses) I am sure you are an excellent mother to your dd and that being adopted by you has made a huge positive difference to her life. I have also said that an article written from first hand accounts of chinese orphanges and the treatment of chinese baby girls has helped me to see the bigger picture and change my mind. I have already explained that I now beleive "It is idealistic to wait for governments to sort out their issues while these individual children are getting older and their chances of a bright future are diminishing." I have said I was naive, I have said I have started to change my mind to agree with you, what more do you want?

Rhubarb your church bashing point is silly- go through any agency and they will approve you if they want you to raise a child they need to find a home for. Catholic agencies are no different-and catholic agencies do not in this country at least only offer children to Catholics. We attend church every Sunday our priest offered to be a referee as did several other priests, no one said slip us a fiver and we'll find you a cutie from somewhere no questions asked.

I'm not talking about just one priest as a referee. You said catholic social services no longer do adoptions - they do.

It's not church bashing, it's fair criticism. My mother went through catholic social services to adopt my brothers, so did my sister to adopt her two. I know of the procedures. The only thing that has changed is that they are not allowed, by law, to refuse to place a child with a gay couple. But they'll get around that too.

My point about catholic social services remains the same.

Just because your family is dysfunctional Rhubarb, does not make you right. So you don't like your mum and your sister and feel vindictively perhaps that they should not have adopted.
You do not like people adopting children from abroad and feel those children should be left in squalor.
You do not like the Catholic church so it must be responsible for all evils in the adoption process because it is an international church.
You are out of touch with recent changes in how the catholic children's agencies now work, but hey don't let that stop the vileness spring forth from your posts, we are after all here to be bashed by you, because you don't like life.

Apart from local authorities there are only seven voluntary agencies (one specifically for forces personnel and one not currently accepting applications) approved by DCFS to do home studies for overseas adoptions. They have to be approved because they need specific skills and knowledge because, surprise surprise, people working in the field do recognise that intercountry and particularly transracial adoption needs careful preparation. Not one of them is a Catholic organisation.

So no you cannot get any Catholic priest to sign you off on the basis that you attend church. When it comes to the rules on intercountry adoption, rhubarb, you really don't know what you're talking about. How many of the 225 applications in 2008 were approved by the Catholic church? NONE.

And yes the decrease in intercountry adoption in China IS predominantly due to increased prosperity because despite the one child policy, families are increasingly opting to pay the fine for the extra child rather than abandon BECAUSE THEY CAN AFFORD TO.

KT - yes I understood you were trying to get me to clarify and that's what I was doing it probably overlapped into a rant which wasn't at all directed at you.

I do understand people having a problem with the idea of intercountry adoption though I haven't yet heard any solution which works for children needing homes now which doesn't involve them moldering in homes for years. I do object to the ridiculous inaccuracies spouted about it.

Thanks silver for that, thanks very much.

I still go to church.

Of course I mustn't know what I'm talking about then. I have obviously made up my sister who adopted via catholic social services. Oh and I obv don't have an elderly mother who takes in teenage deliquents referred to her by catholic social services.

Not the UK but these even offer international adoptions.

But of course I'm just bitter with a dysfunctional family and no life of my own so I just vent bullshit to avenge my sad life onto others.

It really is time I left this thread now. Thanks for taking the time to tear me apart, no doubt you think I deserved it because of my earlier comments. Perhaps I did. Perhaps all I actually do is spout bullshit all day long.

My little brother was adopted from a foreign orphanage. Not because my parents were unable to conceive (they already had 3) but because they knew there were a lot of children in orphanages and that adoption within the country basically wasn't happening, for cultural reasons. This country has since tidied up its act/become more stable/changed its attitude towards illegitimate children, and international adoptions are no longer on the agenda. But hell- 40 years would have been a long time for him to wait!

I never knew that Cory! But then no reason why I should I guess.

Rhubarb is your dragging other countries procedures into the argument an acceptance that intercountry adoption in the UK is actually well regulated? If you would like to go and harangue adopters on a US website please do by all means.

Rhubarb, I never said you made up your family, just that you made them out to be dysfunctional. That is not the fault of the church. One thing that may have affected your family placements is how far attachment theory and therapy has come in recent years.
You made out that the church priest could procure you a child from abroad if you wanted one as long as you went to mass on Sundays-what you were told several times is this is not how it works anymore even if it ever did.
As for the rest-Cory sums it all up quite nicely in her last two sentences.

You know what? You asked for a loophole, I gave you one. I'm accused of church-bashing.

Kew, you have google, you are just as capable of googling catholic social services. They still arrange adoptions, including overseas ones.

You say that the UK adoption process is strict and heavily regulated. I come up with a personal example of why it is not. No doubt when you adopted you went through a very strict procedure, background checks, criminal checks, psychological checks etc. I'm telling you that is not the case for everyone. I cited my sister as an example. You choose not to believe me or claim my information is outdated.

Because you have adopted a child from overseas you think you know everything there is to know about overseas adoption and UK adoption laws? Neither do I know everything, I just question your claims as you question mine.

Whatever answer I give you, you either choose to say that it isn't relevant, or that it's outdated or say I don't know what I'm talking about.

Not so much like treacle but superglue.

You keep claiming that isn't the case today. But from what I can see, the catholic adoption agency has not changed. Can you prove it has?

"Some facts
Statistics show that in 2004-5, collectively the Catholic adoption agencies:

?Approved 176 families to adopt during the year. This represents 32% of the total number of families approved by the Consortium of Voluntary Adoption Agencies.
?Placed 227 children for adoption. This represents 32% of the total number of children placed for adoption by the Consortium of Voluntary Adoption Agencies.
?Were granted 194 Adoption Orders. This represents 32% of the total number of adoption orders that were granted to the Consortium of Voluntary Adoption Agencies"

Which is a lovely set of figures but still does not reflect how this has now changed since the recent changes in law.

Your mum didn't adopt in the last few years I assume? SO yes her adoption procedure is out of date-and we have only your highly strung postings to tell us your sister should not have adopted so I will say no more about that.
CRB checks referees discussions with your family, prep courses follow up sessions grillings by panels of up to 15 members just to be told yes they can start looking for a child for you to adopt-hard to brush all of that under the carpet.

I was reading Melissa Greene's book "There is No Me Without You" last night, which discusses the AIDS crisis in Ethiopia and the devestation and millions of orphans it has left.

She says that for Ethiopians, foreign adoption is a last resort, as traditionally the orphans would be raised by their extended families. AIDS and HIV have destroyed entire families, though, so what's a better option? Have them grow up in another country, or have them live on the streets or in overcrowded orphanages where they sometimes don't have enough to eat and their long range job choices are begging or prostitution?