To want to adopt a child from Haitai?

[booyou]

Well....just that really. We have discussed adopting a child in the future and there are up to 1 million oprhans or one parent has died.... would like to help....

I have absolutely no interest in you, Rhu, you brought it up.

And this stopped being any sort of debate when you barged in and started going at people in a quite frankly rather disturbing fashion.

It's unhinged and freaky.

Bye now.

Oh I'm sorry expat I thought your earlier comments were directed at me.

I'll happily answer any criticisms directed towards me. I don't come on mumsnet to be liked or popular, I have strong views and opinions and I will voice those. If people are offended I'm sorry but you when you take certain actions and make certain decisions in life you have to realise that those decisions and actions may leave you open to criticism. If you cannot take that on board then perhaps you shouldn't be making such decisions.

There are stronger views earlier on than mine in this thread.

However if people have any personal criticisms of me or have a problem with me in anyway, those people do have my email address - as I used to correspond quite freely with a lot of them.

Aside from the arguments about adopting from abroad,

The assertation that people should just adopt or foster from anywhere rather than give birth is nuts.

Does anyone really still think that adoption is that simple?

That the children in care in this country are little blank slates waiting to be rescued by a lovely new mummy and daddy?

Surely everyone knows that isnt the case and hasnt been since the 60s.

I am sorry if international adopters have been upset by this thread.

"because the rules are less stringent, because there aren't as many checks, because those children are cuter"

well now I'm convinced that you really didn't work with any charity involved in overseas adoption because you are so poorly informed. There are more checks with international adoption not fewer. You need to pass both a UK assessment and comply with the other countries rules/assessments too.

Whats with the obsession with non-UK children being "cute"? I've rarely met a child under 2 who wasn't appealing in some way. What do you find so terribly ugly about british children? Stating how dreadful the two adoptive parents in your family are is mind-numbingly irrelevant. I'm fairly certain that statistically birth parents are more likely to be shit than adoptive parents.

"those decisions and actions may leave you open to criticism. If you cannot take that on board then perhaps you shouldn't be making such decisions." - of course I'm aware that some people don't approve of intercountry adoption but I'm no more obliged to take their views on board than yours. Just because you believe in your point of view strongly doesn't actually make you right, you know. Even intercountry adoptees themselves can't agree on whether they think it was better for them or not so I hardly think you're in a strong position to be so certain.

No-one has "no choice" when they get pregnant.

'The assertation that people should just adopt or foster from anywhere rather than give birth is nuts.'

No one 'asserted' that. What I wondered is why those who feel so incredibly strongly that there are so many children in the UK who need loving homes chose to give birth rather than follow such an integral passion of theirs and open up their homes as foster carers or domestic adoptive parents.

It goes to follow that if you have firm convictions you live your life according to those deeply held beliefs.

Expat my comment was more generally directed at the notion that adoption is a simple replacement for birth children.

As it happens I agree with you wondering why those going on about adopting from the UK just dont go ahead and do it rather than telling international adopters they should .

I have spent a day learning about the affects of early trauma on adopted children. This coupled with the stuff being spouted about the 'hell boys' is affecting my reasonable gland. I may well make some more garbled posts by the end of the evening

(I dont even know if assertation is a proper word)

Kew, sorry to burst your bubble but fraudulent adoption agencies are rife in these countries and actually the main reason people turn to overseas adoption is because it is easier to adopt there than in this country. As someone earlier down said, they don't discriminate if you are obese or gay or single or whatever. You might think that is a good thing, but actually they also turn a blind eye to a lot of other things too.

If you think I'm talking bollocks then I suggest you do a little more research into the subject of overseas adoption.

What I have seen and experienced may not make the news, but it doesn't make it anymore relevant.

And Rebecca, I do apologise for asking about how much you paid for your dd, that was out of order and I take it back. I have strong feelings about this issue but that doesn't mean I should offend all and sundry and cast them in the same light. Hopefully if you know about China then you'll know of the sensitivities of this issue. Esp in China.

Wow. Wow. Um, ok.

Che, Kew, Rebecca, I'm so glad that your adoptions have gone well for you. Then again I am American and it's true, my reaction to any adoption really is "Great!", closely followed by "when is he/she getting here? Should we set up a playdate?"

Rhubarb I do to some extent realize where you're coming from in that, yes, it would be so lovely if it were safe/healthy/feasible for children to always stay in their birth countries and within their cultures, but this is not a perfect world and it isn't. I do understand how it would be wrong for a Chinese family who was able to parent a Chinese child to be turned away in favor of wealthy Westerner.

Here in the US we have the ICWA (the Indian Child Welfare Act) in which it's basically impossible to adopt a Native American child if you are not an enrolled member of a tribe. It's understandable b/c the Natives lost something like a third of their children up until the 60's or 70's when the law was inacted. However, I've known Native children who've been bounced around for years because there hasn't been a fit native home who wants to take them.

In the end, a child with a loving home and family is better than one without no matter where they are I'd say.

Are there not enough children/babies in this country that need a lovely family and home?

Ah, I now see that this comment has already been made.

do my research! Umm, did quite a bit already thanks.

I'd be interested to know about these fraudulent adoptions and when they were reported to the police and how they got a visa into the UK because you need to deliver your certificate of eligibility to the embassy along with a pile of other documents, the embassy then check with the DCFS that you are indeed proprerly approved and are who you say you are. The legality of the child being freed for adoption is a matter for the sending country to satisfy themselves and I can't claim that there has never been a case of a child being freed for adoption illegally, I can only tell you that where the UK government have any doubts about the processes within a country then they suspend adoptions eg Guatemala or romania.

Intercountry adoption is harder than domestic in many ways. You are not barred from adopting in the UK due to obesity or age or for being gay. Many people in the UK turn to intercountry adoption because of the attitudes of social workers not because there is any legal reason why they can't adopt. They aren't turned down because they are unfit to adopt. In fact in order to adopt from ANY country you need to get approved by a normal UK adoption panel using exactly the same criteria as any adopter wanting to adopt in the UK. Same home study, same CRB checks, same medical etc. You would not get a certificate of eligibility from DCFS to adopt if all of that were not in place.

People being matched with referrals in Dec 2009 ie 12-18 months after starting the process submitted their paperwork (to China) in MARCH 2006. That nearly 4 year wait for matching is predicted to keep increasing for a while to come (much to your glee I would expect). Why do you keep insisting that this is the easy way? There are way more easier ways to get a child if you have money.

Sorry but you retraction accusing us of buying children is not accepted, you said what you meant to say, you acknowledged you meant to offend and it worked. Even my four year old understands that saying sorry doesn't take away what you did. That it isn't acceptable to hurt someone deliberately and think it wipes it out the hurt if you then say sorry.

The irony is that I think adoptive parents are more understanding than anyone of the fact that it would be better for their children to be raised in their country of birth. But children need homes now and their childhood should not be held hostage to government policies, economic or social circumstances and left with no family. According to the Hague foundation the right to a family life is every childs right. Not just your child but every child.

Would you really prefer your children to be left in foster care or an institution for life rather than have a loving family in a different country? I'd want someone to care for DS desparately, for him to be the most important person in their life, to read stories to him, to love him. I wouldn't care if they were chinese, african or (gasp) American.

I guess you prefer yours to be in care then?

here

Unicef statement: ""But the UN children's agency, Unicef, warns that lack of legal oversight in some countries "has spurred the growth of an industry around adoption, where profit, rather than the best interests of children, take centre stage".

"in some countries" as I said if there is any evidence the UK bans adoptions from that country.

Just in case you didn't know profit making adoption agencies are illegal in the UK. Regarding China the adoption is a government to government programme with no adoption agency intervening (unlike the US) - yes I guess you're accusing either the UK or the Chinese government of profiteering. Which?

American, Kew?! Perish the thought!

I agree with you about "their childhoods not being held hostage". It's a wonderful thing to offer aid to countries so that they can improve to the point where they can care for their children, but such a thing would take years and years in some cases and it's not fair to the little ones who are waiting.

I am watching the news and 184 orphans are arriving in Ottawa, (Canada) for adoption.
I honestly think it is ok for them to be moved if there is nobody at all to care for them in their homeland. Hopefully the parents will raise them knowing their heritage.

I forgot to add, they will arrive in Ottawa Sunday morning.

gtamom, you'll have also seen on the news the charities warning of fast-track adoptions before relatives of the children have been traced. How would you feel if this happened in the UK and you found out that your nieces and nephews had been adopted halfway around the world when you were perfectly capable and willing to care for them?

It also adds to the stress and trauma of the children to take them from their home country, the people they know and ship them halfway around the world to a completely alien culture and language.

kew - yes it is illegal in the UK but that doesn't stop it from happening. Many couples adopt from abroad because it is easier to do so. The adoption process in the UK is long and tricky - abroad, depending on which country you choose, they don't have as many checks, in some cases you don't have to have background checks at all.

Yes I am saying that adoption can be a profiteering business.

I think most people would be distressed beyond measure to find out their nieces or nephews had been adopted to another country.

I think Haiti needs to be incredibly careful this doesn't happen. In the rush to 'save' these children they are not ripped for their real families. Nothing can replace living with your own flesh and blood, even if it is a new life in comparable luxury.

"some cases you don't have to have background checks at all" - if you don't have a UK home study and CRB checks then you are breaking the law regardless of which country you adopt from. If you are aware of cases where people are breaking the law you should be reporting it to the police not pontificating about it on a website. My guess would be that the number of illegal overseas adoptions in this country are tiny and certainly not worthy of a generalised rant. If you have uncovered a major illegal adoption ring I would take my hat off to you - journalists have been crawling all over intercountry adoption for years and have failed to uncover anything significant. Though on a couple of occasions they have claimed to be able to "buy" a child - they've never actually tried to get a visa to bring the child into the country. Because its just not that easy.

I can't think of a country that doesn't require CRB checks (though I'd be interested to know which) but even if they don't the UK DOES and you would struggle to get a child back into the UK. Not impossible but unlikely.

You disapprove of intercountry adoption as is your right, trying to rationalise it with tales of illegal adoptions which are very rare in the UK does not add any merit to your argument. I'd guess there isn't a single human endeavor that doesn't have someone doing it illegally - hardly grounds for banning everything.

The UK is tougher on this that virtually any other country in the world which is why I object to you trying to convince people reading this who know even less than you do that somehow there is a load of illegal adoptions going on here. Either your information is very very out of date or you have information which should be reported to the police. Which?

Apologies to everyone else being bored to death by this exchange. I'm afraid I won't let it go unchallenged - what Rhubarb is so disapproving of is a nice little hobby horse to her, to me its my life and my child's life and not just some theoretical argument where offensive statements are just all part of a game plan to win the argument.

Sorry folks.

Whether or not you agree with international adoption, it is certainly not easy. You still have to have all the checks done by uk social services. You then have to pay for all your travel and expenses abroad. You have to stay in the country for vary periods and negotiate the often baffling legal process (whilst paying for interpreters etc). People have spent years waiting to bring their matched child home only to have the laws in the country change and the whole thing fall through.

I am worried about those kids arriving in Canada so soon after the earthquake. Surely they should be cared for and treated for trauma rather than be up for adoption? Are they really there to be adopted? How on earth can anyone know if they have surviving relatives?

Kew - I totally see why you need to keep challenging. I know we have adopted in very different circumstances but I have had to challenge a fair few offensive views about kinship adoption in the last few years.

Its too personal to see in a theoretical light.

I haven't read the whole thread, so I hope I'm not repeating anyone else.

I heard on the radio that children, and particularly babies are disappearing out of hospitals, it's believed that child traffickers are taking them. Before the earthquake, Haiti had an awful lot of people making money by selling children, and now the whole world feels sorry for all the orphans, the demand for them has gone up.
Many of the children taken still have living parents

The comment made to another mother about buying her child is one of the most offensive and unpleasant things I think I've ever read on here. Whatever the feelings behind it and however proud you are of being outspoken, common decency should've prevented you from pressing the 'post message' botton.

Kew, at no point did I ever say that you or others who adopt foreign children were guilty of breaking the law. I strongly disapprove of it and I think that governments of such countries DO make a profit from western couples adopting a child rather than a couple from their own country.

You may have to do the paperwork once in this country, but you don't have to go through the same strict procedure you would be subjected to if you wanted to adopt a British child. Mainly because once you have brought the child over here, local authorities are not going to put that child into care whilst they go through all the relevant checks with you. So long as you have the correct paperwork from China or wherever then you're ok.

As for illegal adoption rings, I'm sorry but I thought everyone knew this went on here

Child traffiking may not be seen as adoption, but many children are brought in with false papers. If criminals can fake passports they can sure as hell fake adoption certificates. Once here the children simply "disappear". These children would have been 'bought' from Romania or wherever and yes their governments do know about criminals buying children off the streets or from gangs but they are reluctant to act.

Whilst westerners keep coming along and taking the children out of the country, the less likely it is that the government will shake up the social security system to protect such children. In fact a study by Liverpool University found that far from solving the problem of overcrowded orphanages, international adoption actually made it worse. Here

I realise that as an adoptive parent yourself these are sensitive issues and I don't blame you for being defensive. However my opinions are just as valid. I don't think international adoptions should be encouraged. Especially in countries like China where very often mothers are talked into giving up their very wanted babies because of that countries policy. How does international adoption stop the one-child policy? It doesn't, it's a convenient way for China to empty their orphanages.

These children in Haiti are being fast-tracked by the US, many of them will have living relatives but by the time their relatives realise what has happened, it will be too late.

Yes cissy it was out of order of me and I apologised. I was reacting on criticism of a wonderful woman who was almost like a mother to me, but acting out of anger is no excuse.