To want to adopt a child from Haitai?

[booyou]

Well....just that really. We have discussed adopting a child in the future and there are up to 1 million oprhans or one parent has died.... would like to help....

Rhubarb, No, I wouldn't want my family members children to be whisked away, I would be panicked and freaking out if that happened. But these children were already approved for adoption before the earth quake.
I will try and insert a link about it. It says 154 children though, not sure if I remembered it wrong or there were some reasons to cut the number back.
cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2010/01/24/12594436-qmi.html

Kew, it not merely a hobbyhorse to me. After dd was born it was also my life when I got heavily involved in the charity.

I'm not just talking about the UK no, as you can see atm lots of adoptions are being fast-tracked by the US, that is immensely worrying.

There are also US adoption companies that specialise in international adoptions that charge and don't even mention legal procedures. Google them. And the US is one of the biggest, if not THE biggest demanders of overseas children for adoption.

I'm pretty sure that poster would've cried herself to sleep last night. I know I would. I was lucky enough to have my children naturally but had I gone through the Herculean effort to adopt from overseas as some people on here have only to be accused of being complicit in child trafficking (which you remind us all ad infinitum is highly illegal) I'd be straight on the phone to my solicitor. You could then ventilate your 'strong opinions' in front of a high court judge.

gtamom - yes some children were already in orphanages being prepared for overseas adoption, largely to the USA. Their processes are now being fast-tracked. Aid agencies fear that some children are being labelled as orphans and put up for adoption without proper checks being done.

The Independent had a very good Question and Answer style article on the ethics of international adoption, I'll see if I can find it.

Right, here is The Independent article.

cissy, read my posts in context please. The reference to child trafficking was in answer to Kew's question about bogus adoption agencies. There are criminal gangs who forge adoption papers to traffick children yes.
The government could be doing more to prevent these gangs from operating, but they are not.
Some adoption agencies charge large fees and some of those fees go to those very governments. Therefore would it not be best to insist that those governments sort out their child protection procedures?

But I've stated that this is a sensitive topic for everyone involved and again I apologise if my views have offended. The OP offended me very much too.

To stop this thread from turning nasty I shall therefore leave.

Lol at 'read my posts in context please' and 'to stop this thread from turning nasty.'

Whatever, at least I can walk away without goading people into turning nasty like you are. If you want to start a fight go somewhere else, I'm not going to take you on. If your name was Rebecca or Kew then you've every right to throw insults, but as you've just swanned in, goaded and now hope to swan out you can sod off.

How highhanded of you to tell me I've no right to comment on your remarks (on a public forum). You can choose to ignore them but by bloody god I won't be sodding off just because you told me to.

"Mainly because once you have brought the child over here, local authorities are not going to put that child into care whilst they go through all the relevant checks with you. So long as you have the correct paperwork from China or wherever then you're ok."

I can't keep telling you you're wrong Rhubarb because it gets boring for all of us but you need all UK checks - homestudy, CRB checks, medicals etc BEFORE you are permitted to travel to adopt a child.You are approved by the same panel of people who approve UK adoptions and are held to the same standards as a UK adopter. The rules changed some years ago.

I know of several people applying to panel to adopt from overseas who have been denied for various reasons.

I don't expect you to accept this but I would like others who may be reading the thread to feel reassured that the UK processes regarding intercountry adoption are exceptionally strict and some of the toughest in the world. Hence the extremely low volume of intercountry adoptions in the UK.

you know the adopted child would be, well, black...

Most waiting children in the UK are not waiting " simply because they are not babies". They are mostly school age and almost all have a variety of special needs.

I am encouraged to read so many posts advising adoption from the Uk and hope that many of you will be successful in your applications.

In the US a lot of people don't do in-country adoptions b/c the US favors "family reunification", sometimes to the detriment of the child. (Not ALWAYS, so get away, flamers! ) By the time the courts have realized that it's not going to happen, the kids have been bounced between their parents and foster homes for so long that they have emotional issues and other problems. Is that the issue in the UK as well?

Its also very probable that the number of "orphans" with no family is being way overestimated as it was after the Tsunami.

This was not a one-off.

Really, really don't want to look like I'm haranging you Rhubarb but in this country people cases like the Kilshaws are pretty rare. Yes, I agree, it does go on, but not to the extent that it may do in other countries. In any case, the proper checks and balances soon weeded these two out as they were not permitted to adopt the children in question.

Your motives behind your arguements are admirable. All I want to say is that sometimes people do the wrong thing for the right reason. For those people who have gone down this road on this forum, I'm sure they thought long and hard about it and are working damned hard to make it a sucess. They perhaps should be given some degree of respect for that

Rhubarb - that case was 10 years ago and as a result UK law was changed so that now you may not travel overseas to adopt until AFTER you have been approved and vetted in the UK. You cannot get a visa to bring the child back into the country unless you have a Certificate of Eligibilty from DCFS. Of course I have said this before but you obviously think I "haven't done my research" - whereas in fact the (mis-)information you are spreading is very out of date.

Even 10 years ago you couldn't adopt from China without a UK home study first.

You claim you only accused interco-adopters of buying babies because you were cross that someone had maligned your friend. I'm afraid I don't think that accusing parents of buying their children is a fair swap for (understandably) calling someone hypocritical for adopting a Chinese baby and then claiming such adoptions are unjust and shouldn't be allowed. Whether she moved to Hong Kong or Shanghai or where-ever doesn't preclude the fact that she has a Chinese daughter being brought up in a white family. Why did she do it if she was so against the practice? My guess is because she wanted a child and the child needed a family - now, not in 20 years when China had sufficient local adopters.

At one point on this thread you rather disparging said "I can't imagine picking one one child from an orphange and leaving the rest behind" (or words to that effect). Are you so unempathetic that you cannot imagine how tough that it (leaving the others behind, that is)? DO you really see adopters as machines who buy their "cute" baby and run off cackling not caring a jot for the others. Because I spent 3 months in Kazakhstan, visiting the orphanage for 4 hours a day every single day and got to know some of the many children there and one of the hardest things I have ever done in my life was to walk away and leave them there. Because despite what you obviously think, the checks and balances that exist don't actually allow you to just wander in and help yourself to a handful of children that you fancy.

I thought I was the toughest cookie around and I still wept when I had to leave the children I had known who had smiled at me hopefully when I arrived and those who called me "Mama" when I passed them on the stairs. Those I had sung happy birthday to and blown bubbles for. My mother was with me for part of my trip and she was terribly upset about some grandparents who were visiting their baby grandson in the orphanage who cried every time they left him there. She spent many hours trying to come up with a plan to allow them to take him home, she still talks about he little boy who was the spitting image of my nephew at the same age and she was frustrated that the laws meant we couldn't bring him home with us. Unlike you I hope he was adopted and is adored by someone every bit as much as I adore my DS - but he had been in the orphange 2 years with no sign of anyone adopting him yet so I doubt it. No doubt you count that as a victory

I was thrilled when one of the boys I'd known was subsequently adopted by an American family and I was able to give them some early photos of him.

SO yes I do think its a hobby of yours, because though a world with no intercountry adoption because child are not relinquished or because they are adopted locally is an admirable aim, I don't think it has really impinged on your life in the same way as though who have adopted or you would never be advocating that they should be left where they are. No child deserves to grow up with nothing, no family, no possessions whilst waiting for goverments to sort their shit out.

I am very seriously confused about this Jacqui Shurr woman. I was led to understand that she was very anti-'foreign' adoption yet talks about it in very positive terms on her website.

I'm not trying to 'stir' 'goad' etc but what exactly is her foundation's objection to the sort of thing the OP proposed when she herself talks of the joys of seeing an orphaned child being adopted by an American family.

Disclaimer: I'm probably being very thick.

I thought the same thing Cissy - it certainly isn't obvious that she is anti-adoption.

this is from the Good Rock Foundations website

" The Good Rock Foundation is a UK & Hong Kong registered charity, we provide humanitarian aid. We are not able to facilitate adoption of children in China.

However we would like to refer you to some useful links below. Our director Jacqui Shurr is the proud mother of a daughter from China & you are welcome to get in touch by email if you would like to ask about her own personal experience.

For a comprehensive guide about overseas adoption please visit www.adoptionoverseas.org you will also find many useful links from their site

Suggest that you also visit the web site of the Chinese Embassy of your home country."

When Jacqui Shurr adopted her dd she realised the extent of the problems China was facing. She had seen 'The Dying Rooms' and I believe that spurred her into action.

However through her work she realised that international adoption does not solve the problem, in fact it often compounds it as my link to the Liverpool University article shows. Esp in a country such as China were these babies are not actually orphans at all, they have mothers and fathers who are unable to keep them because of the country's policy. So actually I do think that taking the child out of the country is not the answer.

Jacqui made the decision to move to Hong Kong to work full time with the charity. She also made the decision to search for the parents of her dd as she was convinced that her dd had been loved and wanted.

She works closely with the Chinese government but treads a very thin line as, if she oversteps the mark at all, her charity can be closed down. Therefore she cannot be political in any way.

She does not endorse international adoption, although she will provide a referral to the correct agency or the embassy.

She is also very happy to talk about her reasons for adopting her dd and how she feels about international adoption - why don't you email her?

The UK now may be strict on adoption, although personal experience does not give me much faith in that. As much as I do not wish to slag off family members, my sister was able to adopt 2 children - she is mentally unstable, does not have the support of her dh's family and has a very destructive mother - whom social services allow to foster teenage children. My sister subsequently had 2 natural children of her own. She cannot cope with the 2 older children, they are violent with each other, both drink and smoke and she provides alcohol to the 13yo for a 'quiet life'.

There is no point in me reporting her as social services are heavily involved and are providing counselling for the children. So I have no confidence in these so-called 'strict' checks. If you go through catholic social services you can get away with a lot.

So there are loopholes that are exploited still. My sister didn't adopt from abroad but I have no doubt that if she wanted to, if she went through catholic social services she could.

Adoption is actually a part of my life as my two brothers are adopted. Both British but both black adopted to a white family. Both have suffered immensely at the hands of racists who don't take kindly to inter-racial adoption. Therefore it is not just a 'hobby-horse' for me. I have no doubt that you adopted for the right reasons, but I am against international adoption for what I believe are the right reasons. As much as I love my brothers, I don't think my younger one should ever have been put up for adoption and I think my older one should have gone to Asian parents.

The more popular international adoption remains the more children are put at risk. Supply and demand. Yes it may be harder now to get these children into the UK, but people from other countries such as Romania or Russia don't have such strict laws governing adoption. Parents of Chinese girls think they are giving them up to a better life, but are they really?

And yes it does sicken me when Madonna and Angelina Jolie can walk into an orphanage, pick out a baby and then start adoption procedures. Jacqui Shurr felt that tear when she adopted her dd, so much so that she went back to those orphanages to work with those children. Since then she's placed hundreds of children in homes with local people and she's worked hard to improve conditions in orphanages. She also works hard to get the government to take responsibility for this, to give mothers more support, to set up drop-in centres and clinics and even drop-off points for abandoned babies as many of them were being left in streets or outside churches. Now they have a safe and secure place to leave them. Although she tries hard to make sure that the women know there are other choices open to them - but if the government stance doesn't change, those choices are few and far between.

We all care about this situation. You felt you were doing your bit by adopting a child. I would go about it a very different way. I disagree with your method and you may disagree with mine. Apologies for any upset I may have caused. We shall just have to agree to differ on this one.

I posted earlier on this thread from a very anti-intercountry adoption point of view.

I have adopted 2 children from the UK and during the assessment/preparation process lots of people asked me if we would consider intercountry adoption.

Personally this was never an option for me because I could not live with taking a child away from their culture. Partly because the child, when grown up would not be able to speak the language of their country of origin (and if fortunate to trace birth family could not communicate directly with them), partly because I feel it is wrong for intercountry adoption to happen where there are economic reasons for children being orphaned/abondoned.

I passionately believe that countries should sort out their own solutions. But I also realise that in the meantime children are being cast aside and this is unacceptable.

Reading the arguments on this thread, (and the weekend section of the Guardian from saturday), I realise that I have maybe been a bit niaive.

As Kew said "No child deserves to grow up with nothing, no family, no possessions whilst waiting for goverments to sort their shit out. "

It is idealistic to wait for governments to sort out their issues while these individual children are getting older and their chances of a bright future are diminishing.

I think in some ways it takes a braver person than me to go through an intercountry adoption. I still strongly beleive that adopting from Haiti is very undesirable and obviously the dust should be allowed to settle before any child is even declared to be an orphan.

(the article in the Guardian was an extract from "Message From An Unknown Chinese Mother: Stories Of Loss And Love", by Xinran, published on feb 4th by Chatto & Windus)

Kew I am a bit confused by your earlier post saying "I was too old, too single and too middle-class for any child that might have some chance of making a permanent home with me. Only children I would be considered for were children with serious problmes" because from that I see why Rhubarb may have thought you were saying that intercountry adoption is easier than domestic adoption, which I am sure you were not saying.

Rhubarb what is it with this Jacqui Shurr woman? Do you beleive everything she, and only she, has told you? Can she really be that perfect? Why does she have links to "adoption overseas" etc on her website? Hmmmmmm
You do appear to be quite ignorant of the current adoption process in the UK. I know it varies from agency to agency but your personal experience (sister etc) does not apply to most adopters, I can assure you.
Do you, Rhubarb, honestly think that children should be left to live out their childhoods in orphanages while legal, genuine, prospective adopters in other countries are ready and willing to provide them with loving homes? There may be a very small minority of cases involving forged certificates/child trafficking which is despicable and horrendous but should children lose out on loving families because criminal activity exists?

No ktbeau I don't. But meanwhile back in the UK there are children in homes or with abusive families that are being denied love and affection.

I do think there are loopholes with adoption in this country and that seriously questionable people are able to adopt. But then seriously questionable people also have babies of their own so what do I know?

Jacqui Shurr, I'm sure she isn't perfect and her answer to you would be that a lot of people approach her asking how to go about adopting a child. She'd rather give them legitimate links than not. She'll also badger them for support.

Why do I trust her? Because she inspired me, still does. Any woman that gives up her comfortable lifestyle to dedicate her life to these children is worthy of respect. I know some of the trials and tribulations she went through, the dilemmas and the anxiety of working closely WITH the government rather than against them. The constant compromises that I personally would not have done, but she did because she could see the bigger picture whereas I was always too hasty, too forthright, too opinionated and probably still am!

Email her, please do.

You may think me naive, perhaps I am, my experiences are largely personal ones. But they have taught me that sometimes the law is an ass, that religion covers up the darkest of deeds and opens doors that should remain closed, and that money gets you everywhere.

Yes Rhubarb, and I have adopted 2 of those children from the UK.

How do you propose improving the UK adoption approval process while still providing homes for these children?