To want to adopt a child from Haitai?

[booyou]

Well....just that really. We have discussed adopting a child in the future and there are up to 1 million oprhans or one parent has died.... would like to help....

silver - you won't believe a bloody thing will you?
"CRB checks referees discussions with your family, prep courses follow up sessions grillings by panels of up to 15 members just to be told yes they can start looking for a child for you to adopt-hard to brush all of that under the carpet."

I am telling you that did not happen in the cases I know about. But you refuse to believe that the adoption procedures in this country can have the slightest bit of weakness. You also refuse to hear any bad about the church - why is that? If only everything were so rosy and incorruptable in your pleasant world.

I am well aware that there is corruption in the church, but in this country the church is not involved in adoptions the was you claim, the figures you give relate to a time BEFORE the change in law meant most catholic adoption agencies ceased to work as Catholic agencies and certainly that they no longer are involved in International Adoption. you said that if we wanted to we could have gone through the catholic church to adopt no questions asked-Kew and I both pointed out this is wrong.
As for all of the above for the adoption process it is in legislation without it the adoption is void-so what either the adoptions you know about pre date the act OR they are illegal, I doubt it is the latter. To be honest you just sound like you find life difficult and why shouldn't you be challenged, you certainly have made some cruel and challenging comments on this debate so far.

As Cory and Cheerfulyank say-what is better to be cared for in a loving home, or to barely have your needs met in an institution whilst you wait for those around you to change?

rhubarb "it didn't happen in the cases I know about" no-one can say for definate that it (CRB checks referees discussions with your family, prep courses follow up sessions grillings by panels of up to 15 members) didn't happen in those 2 cases involving your family members. You may be right, they may have had no checks at all and in which case unsuitable people have slipped through the net and no-one would argue that that is a very bad thing.

Tbh my sister is very vague about the process we went through to become adopters because we didn't discuss every detailed part of the process (we talked about it lots but I am sure she has forgotten most of it because it was very dull, lots of waiting) and we are very close.

Even so, those are 2 cases.

On the other hand lots of recent adopters keep telling you that that hasn't been the case for us. We have been held up to the light, inspected, interviewed, questioned, observed etc time and time again. That has been our experience recently (more recently than 13 yrs ago)

However, even all those checks may not stop a determined unscrupulous con artist from adopting a child.

Maybe your mum and sister are articulate and came across well to their assessing social workers?

Your assessment of them as being unsuitable is your opinion.

anyway, I thought you were going to leave this thread

I feel like a complete idiot now. I struggled my way through years of checks and bureaucracy only to discover on this thread I just had to become Catholic and a whole world of intercountry adoption would have become easy.

Sorry Rhubarb that last bit about leaving was mean. I don't mean it.

ktbear, unfortunately it's hard to leave a thread when your reputation, sources, knowledge etc is being questioned and you are told that you only suffer from a dislike of life and that I hate the church.

My sister adopted 13 years ago.

What I am saying is that whenever they encountered a problem, like her mental health diagnoses, the nuns and priests would get involved and it no longer seemed to matter. Her family were not questioned apart from our mother, who was known by catholic social services and who has an excellent reputation.

You ask for recent evidence. I tell you that she is STILL fostering teenage boys given her by catholic social services. Not adoption no, but evidence of the malpractice that goes on. It was 2 years ago that my brother had to share a room with one of those teenage boys - I don't need to tell you how vulnerable that left him.

Leeds catholic services are still advertising adoption services when silver1 said they no longer did adoptions. I doubt she will concede that she is wrong.

Yes you only have my say so that my sister and mother are unsuitable, but my difficulties with them are well known on Mumsnet.

I am not against adoption, but I am against international adoption. No child should be left without a home, but I feel the government should try to house them locally first. Many of the children are not even orphans, esp in China.

I can't tell you anymore than I have.

Kew lol! Bloody good point. It took us 4 years of assessment and matching, should have gone to a couple of masses and got it done the quick way

13 years ago then you could adopt overseas by going through the catholic church here in the UK, I'm not convinced that is no longer the case. In the US you can still adopt from abroad by going through the church.

My sister got her kids after a year. And her dh's family didn't even know about the adoption, so they obv weren't questioned about him.

So you choose to take the piss now rather than listen to the valid points I've made?

But of course, that's the perfect way to block out things you don't want to hear.

Because you haven't heard of it happening it cannot be true right? The church isn't that powerful right? Or corrupt?

Angelina is that you?

Rhubarb your concerns about what may be happening in the catholic church are valid. If that is happening that it is very, very wrong.

I haven't said I don't beleive you, I have said its difficult to beleive considering my experience of adoption.

After all we have been through, as adopters, to bring our dc home, we naturally find it hard to beleive that there was any alternative "quick" way.

Have you contacted Local Authority SS about your concerns re your Mum fostering? (unfortunately they are prob so desperate for foster carers, esp for teenage boys, that they have to accept less than perfect situations unless there is evidence of actual harm being done)

The media/local authority/police may be interested in your experience/evidence of the catholic church being able to short cut the adoption/fostering approval process

This is clearly a very sensitive subject and everyone is bound to have their own feelings and experiences to contribute to the debate.

I would hesitate to tell the op that she IBU but I recently met a 10 year old girl who was adopted from South Korea by American family. She and dd1 became fast friends and have shared many secrets. I was deeply saddened when dd told me that her friend used to dream about meeting her birth mother until she realised that she could not even speak to her if they did meet. She feels as though she does not 'fit in' with her adopted family and that they don't really understand her.

I fully accept that these feelings could exist even in a birth-child but it does seem like a heavy burden for this particular child. Until she came into our lives, I would likely have considered international adoption myself...

I am sure that there must be better solutions than removing these orphans from all that is familiar.

The Catholic Charities here in the states (at least the ones I've spoken to) only places domestic infants. (Not helpful to me-DH and I are hoping to adopt an American toddler from foster care.)

have listened to everything you say Rhubarb, I have put my arguments and facts. I didn't need convincing that intercountry adoption should be a last resort, however you haven't convinced me that intercountry adoption is the easy option. You have come up with what you think might be a way to circumvent the system but have no evidence since the law changed many years ago that this is actually possible - though you claim it to be possible in the UK and I have no argument with that either way it isn't my area of knowledge.

You haven't addressed why if the process is so easy to circumvent why there is such a laughably small number of intercountry adopters here, 225 per year remember?

Please don't answer I'm beginning to lose the will to live. Taking the piss is all I have left.

Leeds eh- one society in Leeds could have helped me shortcut every up and down check and counter check, medical interview and panel concening, shame I don't live there I could have saved myself lots of time and money.

Sorry Rhubarb but bigger picture is all I have to say. As others have said why not just report your mum and sister if you are that concerned?

I think to some extent the argument about some of these children not being actual orphans is a red herring. They are no doubt classed as such if their parent(s) left them at the side of a road, dropped them off at an orphange etc to be cared for by others. Just as lots of children who are going through the adoption process in this country have living relatives, parents even, they still need new parents.

Obviously this argument doesn't apply to those parents whose kids were forcibly taken or would be capable of caring for their child with appropriate care.

silver1 - if Leeds catholic services are still doing adoptions what makes you think others are not?

What was this law change that stopped the catholic adoption services organising adoptions?

The fact that these children are not orphans is very important. If the one-child policy were not in place, if these women were given better support, if China didn't have such an appauling human rights record, most of those children would not have been abandoned.

You know what you do from your own experiences and I know what I do from mine. They differ hugely. That does not make you right and me wrong or vice versa.

Kew you stated: "I was too old, too single and too middle-class for any child that might have some chance of making a permanent home with me. Only children I would be considered for were children with serious problmes - because thats the sensible thing to do of course match th emost damaged childrne with the least experienced and least "perfect" parents .

I think you ALWAYS need to adopt because you want another child and for no other reason. Any child adopted for charitable purposes (no matter how well intentioned) faces a sad reality. If you are not determined to have a child, you will never get through the toruous British process."

So if the UK adoption process didn't approve you how did you get the go-ahead to adopt from abroad? And do you think that if you are refused adoption here in the UK that you should be able to seek a child from overseas?

Not an opinion, just a question.

Yes it is shocking that the catholic church had so much influence. I already stated that there was no point reporting my sister (although I have considered it many times - does that make me a bad person?). What good would it do now? Social services already know all about her. They are heavily involved in the family because of the childrens behavioural issues.

Believe me I would be overjoyed if catholic social services were disbanded. But they are not. I believe the way they disregard the rules is shocking.

I am at the moment fighting a losing battle to stop my mother putting my brother into a house by himself for a variety of reasons I shan't go into on this thread, but social services have refused to help not only me, but every other single member of my family that have voiced concerns over what is happening. Do you think they would take any notice if I reported her now?

Nobody has commented on the Liverpool University link I gave which stated that taking children abroad may compound the issue of overflowing orphanages.

Yes the Kilshaw case was rare, however that happened in 2001, just 9 years ago, after the time when you said the laws had been made tighter. And what about this online adoption agency? Are there any more that offer children from overseas? Yes, here's one. You see it all amounts to supply and demand - if there is a large demand for overseas children in the USA then someone will supply those children. 12,753 overseas children were sent to the US last year.

And yes Kew, I know that is the US and therefore, in your eyes, not relevant. But it is. Because we are talking about overseas adoption here in general as well as UK adoption laws and the morals and ethics of taking a child from its country of origin.

I sincerely hope that you can no longer adopt using the catholic adoption agency, but so far no-one has convinced me that this practice has stopped.

The Kilshaws was a private adoption case. Apparently in the US private adoptions account for 45% of all adoptions.

Does anyone know about private adoption in the UK?

The Catholic Childrens Rescue Society is on the BAAFs list of voluntary adoption agencies who are permitted to make arrangements for adoption.

Private adoptions are no longer permitted in the UK. It was banned I beleive as a direct result of the Kilshaw case - or at least the overseas private adoption was.

I have no idea about the UK adoption VAA's, my understanding is that any "catholic" agency who wanted to continue as an adoption agency had to cut links with the diocese. That lead to some cutting links and some dropping out of home studies but staying involved in childrens services in other ways. (my understnading but i'm no expert on that). They aren't approved for intercountry adoption - there'S a list on the DCFS website.

Really interesting discussion today on Woman's Hour with a woman who is Chinese and has written a book on Chinese orphans. She spoke of the desperate plight of mothers who had no choice other than to give up their children. She also spoke of a harrowing scene she witnessed after the birth of a Chinese girl when basically (I won't give too much detail as upsetting) the child was left for dead.

She concluded that whilst these children should know that in many instances they had mothers who loved them, for others a life in the West was the only hope they had.

Hi Cissy

that sounds like ""Message From An Unknown Chinese Mother: Stories Of Loss And Love", by Xinran, published on feb 4th by Chatto & Windus" (I mentioned it earlier in the thread after reading extracts in the guardian on 23/01 - don't expect you to have read the whole thread tho as it's quite long and involved!! Im just including the reference again for anyone interested in finding out more) - I missed her on Womens' hour, will try and listen to it on the internet

It was very powerful reading and helped me to see the bigger picture