To want to adopt a child from Haitai?

[booyou]

Well....just that really. We have discussed adopting a child in the future and there are up to 1 million oprhans or one parent has died.... would like to help....

I worked for the Good Rock Foundation. A charity that works closely with the orphanages in China and are very against this kind of adoption. They feel that the children should be brought up in their home country. There are plenty of older parents in China whose only child has now left home and are willing to adopt, but their applications are being rejected in favour of westerners with money.

No-one should adopt from Haiti if they can't even spell the country's name anyway fgs. I understand that helpless feeling, but taking them from their home country is not the answer. Their identity is the only thing they have right now.

Agencies will be trying to find people in Haiti or surrounding areas to adopt these children and an influx of westerners will only hamper that. If you want to help, then donate to charities who want to keep the children in the countries where they were born.

"I worked for the Good Rock Foundation. A charity that works closely with the orphanages in China and are very against this kind of adoption."

Well that's hypocritical given that their director is a British woman with an adopted Chinese daughter

expat now you're just being damn rude. I shared my experience with it (i.e. my nans experience and my baby aunt) because I felt it appropriate and wanted others to understand that I am not just saying these things and I do understand adoption to some extent.

I understand the pain you go through when you're told that the child you already love so damn much is likely going to be taken from you; it may be in a different aspect (as a sister-figure, not parent) but I still understand it and the work and money that goes into an adoption, overseas or not.
I remember each and every time I went back to work how I wondered if she'd be there the next time I got to visit home and just as badly wondered how my Nan would cope with losing her. I also know how it feels to be told that after years of waiting and hoping that the child can be part of your family and that you won't lose them.

The only bloody motive I care about in any sense with adoption is that as long as the parents want to care for the child and love them as they would their own then nothing else matters.

I know that this country has stupid regulations such as age caps and monetary caps for adoption which make it impossible to adopt a child in this country which is one reason of many to look abroad.

The only point I have tried to make has been that children over here need to be adopted too and that it makes sense to look here first because the OP suggested adopting from Haiti because of what's happened over there and how she felt seeing the children on TV.

RebeccaRabbit: I'm honestly not saying that an adoption from abroad is less deserving and I can only hope that my words would not be taken in such a way, I just feel that looking here first makes sense [in most cases].

RebeccaRabbit: If you don't mind me asking, why did you feel that adopting from abroad was your first option?

And it's not rude to tell people that if they want to adopt they should try for UK first, or foster (spare room, spare cot = foster)?

Prop - it was what we wanted to do. Just as, presumably, you chose to give birth rather than adopt even though you appear to be so passionate about the plight of British children in care You're out of line telling adopters why and where they should adopt from.

BTW there are approx 4000 domestic adoptions in the UK compared with less than 300 inter country adoptions.

Thanks expat for your support - whenever ICA is mentioned on MN it gets such a negative reaction I sometimes wonder what people in RL think about my family

Expat: It's not rude to offer options to people who don't consider the alternatives imo (which the OP did not consider), and adoption from the UK seems the most logical, least time consuming and [supposedly] 'easier' option in adoption for a British family. I didn't mean fostering as an alternative to adoption, just again as an option and was directed at those who said "I have a spare cot and just want to take those children in to look after them until they can go home." (or something along those lines) of which there were a small few saying that in the earlier pages.

RebeccaRabbit: I have no children, I joined this site when I was nannying and would happily have my own children, adopt from both the UK and abroad later on and foster. I very much love the idea of both adoption and fostering and would most definately try for either (or preferably both) at some point in my life however I know that it would be logical for me to have 'my own' children first as I'm too young and too poor and would not be considered for adoption just yet and I'd prefer to foster when I'm quite a bit older, have some spare cash and can leave work and devote my time to any child who comes through my door.
I am of the opinion that children's souls are born to their parents, so be it by birth, adoption or fostering a child will always find their rightful parent no matter where they are which is why I don't think adoption from abroad is wrong in any respect, but as I have said above it just seems more logical to look closer to home first in most cases.

Personally I don't see much of a negative reaction on this thread, people telling OP that she was overreacting to her feelings if she adopted yes, but only really one person saying outright (or even hinting) that adopting from overseas is a bad or wrong thing that I can see (and they were commenting on an orphanage companies beliefs)?

Well, I've explained my original comments as much as I can and have repeated myself over and over to have each word twisted and turned. Take my words as you will for if you knew me in RL you'd know just how passionate I am about adoption [in general] as there are too many children without homes in the UK let alone worldwide. I can't say anymore without repeating myself here and have a work induction day to get too for my new job

Rebecca Rabbit - would you mind then, since you have done your research, telling everyone where exactly that British woman and her daughter lives?

She happens to be Jacqui Shurr, a very good friend of mine. She lives in Hong Kong with her family and campaigns for children to stay in their country of birth. She is actively looking for the birth mother of her daughter so they can be reunited as she is convinced that the mother never wanted to give her daughter up.

Here this woman has given up her life to work with China's orphans. You could say that she didn't adopt her daughter, she adopted the country. She now lives there with her husband and two other boys.

She gets very angry when people accuse her of supporting overseas adoption. As you can see from the website, everything she does now is done from within China. She encourages fostering and adoption from within the country itself and so far she is successful. Previously the Chinese didn't even consider fostering or adopting, now it's a viable option and it stops children from being taken away from their country of birth, away from their culture.

Rebecca Rabbit, if you were willing to do what this woman has done then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

I have never met such a selfless, inspiring woman. She is amazing and so is the work she does. So don't you dare to even think you can call her a hypocrite.

Of course she's a hypocrite if she, as a white British woman, has adopted a Chinese child but wishes to prevent others from doing so when it is in the best interest of the child which it most definitely was in the case of my daughter.

Good for her for living in China but that isn't an option for most ICA adopters, many of us work and use part of our salaries to support orphaned children in China i.e. give Jacqui and other aid workers the finance they need in order to do their work.

And don't give me that baloney about keeping kids within their culture when it is a culture of poverty and inequality, my DD is thriving in her new culture where she has a right to free education and healthcare and the enjoyment of ballet classes and birthday parties and holidays.

But most of all she has a mummy and daddy (and extended family) who adore her and she loves too. That's better than life in an orphanage or a foster home where the family would be paid to look after her.

Things are changing in China due to the Hague Convention, the increase in prosperity which means fewer children are being abandoned and a relaxation of the adoption rules which makes it easier for Chinese people to adopt. Those changes have come to late too benefit my DD.

And just how much did it cost you? How much did you pay for her?

That's why it's so difficult for Chinese people to adopt in their own country, because of rich westerners.

Sorry to be brutal, but Jacqui Shurr is a lovely woman who didn't want to just adopt a Chinese baby and then yank it away from its culture and family. She gave up her job, so did her dh, for her dd and dd's country.

If that isn't an option for you, then perhaps adopting from abroad should also not be an option for you.

The best interests of your daughter would have been better served to have stayed in her country and to have been adopted by a Chinese couple. How anyone can go into an orphanage and just pick out one child is beyond me.

I'm glad you pay towards the support of charity workers over there. I dare say that will make more of a difference than you think. But don't kid yourself into thinking that you acted for the benefit of your dd, you didn't. You acted for your benefit only.

i already have 2 adopted children fron uk,and i would adopt a child today from haiti but in the real world its not the answer but i really wish i could find the answer because honestly i think my head will explode with the heartache and pain i keep seeing these children going through and the desperation of the adults its for too big for me to even begin to understand and i honestly cant bear the pain of these people,and what a selfish response of myself i truly wish i could wave that magic wand for all of haiti

I think it would add to these children's pain if they were taken from everything they know to a different land, culture and language.

There will be parents there who have lost their children too. Once the country is stabilised and settled it would make more sense to start an adoption programme from within the country as I'm sure many Haitian people would love to adopt one of those children. At least then the child can stay within its own culture and it could be part of the healing process for that child to watch as, hopefully, Haiti starts to rebuild itself.

What you can do to help is to donate to Unicef or Save the Children or go here

what rhubarb says is spot on,part of the adoption process is making adoptive parents aware of the childs backgrounds and their needs to know where they come from and trust me if you dont support these needs it does come back to bite,my children have been given the truth from day one and support to understand their backgrounds,the children of haiti are best supported in haiti

"How much did you pay for her?" - I know you're trying to 'win' the argument Rhubarb but that's the most offensive thing I've ever heard you say - and I respect your opinion in this even if I don't agree.

My son was in institutional care for 11 months, no one was interested in adopting him. NO-ONE. And in Kazakhstan locals get given priority and for the first three months of being freed for adoption it is only locals who are allowed to adopt. It (local adoption) is becoming more common as the economic situation improves and also fewer children are relinquished for economic reasons. But ancestry is very important to Kazakhs - its very very common for people to be able to name their Khan and to recite the names of seven generations of fathers/grandfather etc and are often unwilling to consider an adoption in the absence of information about birth families. There is also an age limit on parents there in order to stop people adopting children as carers for their old age which would preclude you suggestion that older local parents would like to adopt.

Just how long do you think children should be left without families - until a local family you would approve of arrives - what if that's never?

Very easy to blame adoptive parents for being the problem but of course if the Chinese government changed its policy on single child families the problem would be dramatically reduced overnight.

Your friend is hardly unique in searching for birth parents - I have and many adopters I know have too. And it's a rare birth parent who "wants" to give their child up for adoption so they are hardly in a minority on that front either.

PS - The single biggest payment I made during DS's adoption was to my local council - presumably you think they are complicit in this trade in children as well as the DCFS who are now planning to charge up to £2,000 for processing applications. Perhaps you should be writing to them to object.

China has already tightened its criteria quite drastically and waiting times to be matching are running into years - three to five years I hear now. It's hardly a picture of rich selfish Americans throwing around lots of money on a whim and and "yanking" a child out a child out - there are far easier places to go if they so choose for an American

"How anyone can go into an orphanage and just pick out one child is beyond me" - how you can have worked for a charity that supports orphanages in China and for a woman who adopted from China and believe that parents walk into an orphanage and "choose" one child is beyond me . But don't let the facts get in the way.

Thankfully for DS, Kazakhstan complies with the Hague Convention that every child deserves a family life, not the Rhubarb Convention that every child should have only an appropriate family life and if one can't be found then tough.

sorry that was a bit of a pointless rant, I shall from now on.

Rhubarb - your ignorance is astounding.

I didn't "pay" for my daughter, she wasn't a commodity to be purchased. We went through a very rigorous legal process supervised by both the British and Chinese governments. Of course there were costs involved but the most expense was the cost of the Home Study done by our local Social Services. There was also a donation of $3000 to our DD's orphanage which would be used to help the children remaining in their care.

And we didn't "go into an orphanage and just pick only one" (further proof of your ignorance), our DD was chosen for us by the Chinese govt.

LOL at us being "rich westerners". The reason there were not many Chinese adopters until recently was the "one-child" policy, ie if you already had a child you couldn't adopt another. Also there was a huge stigma attached to adoption although "informal" adoption has been going on for decades.

Things are changing in China and domestic adoptions increasing and ICA dramatically decreasing.

You say that Jacqui didn't "yank" her daughter out of her culture but it appears she was quite happy to yank her two bio sons out of theirs!

Of course, we adopted for our benefit as well as our daughters just as parents have birth children for their own fulfilment.

Who are you to say that she would have been better off with a Chinese family? You've never met her and know nothing of her life! She is a blissfully happy, extroverted, affectionate little girl so DH and I must be doing something right, selfish, rich westerners that we are

Rebecca et al, yes I deliberately chose to offend there so you would realise how much you offend others.

Yes you would have paid fees to the courts, social services and so on.

I think it rather low Rebecca to pour scorn and criticism on a woman who is not here to defend herself and whom you have never met.

I do feel strongly about this. There are children in this country who are dying, who receive no love. And a shortage of people willing to give them homes they richly deserve.

So I'm so very sorry if I offended you, but by choosing to go abroad for your children, you offend me. You are quite right, a child is not a commodity, so why exactly do you have to go abroad to give a child a loving home when there are so many desperate for homes over here.

'there are far easier places to go if they so choose for an American'

Exactly, loads of others countries cheaper - Guatamala, for starters.

I can't believe anyone would criticise a person for giving any child a loving home because 'they should have gone UK first'.

"So I'm so very sorry if I offended you" - no you're not, why pretend you are? You aimed to offend, you did, you are pleased that we raised to the bait.

'Rebecca et al, yes I deliberately chose to offend there so you would realise how much you offend others.'

You're personally offended by people who go abroad to adopt, not even knowing why and with the knowledge that some of these parents cannot adopt in the UK because they don't meet legal criterion for it (too old, single, gay, obese, etc.).

I also fail to understand why anyone who feels so strongly about all these children in the UK who need 'loving homes' chose to give birth rather than becoming foster carers or adoptive parents to these children themselves.

Well I didn't choose to give birth expat, as you bloody well know. I got pregnant by accident.

My mother adopted my two brothers from the UK and she fostered all her life and I can't stand the bloody woman.

My sister also adopted two children and I don't think she should have at all, she's an unfit mother who gives alcohol to her 14yo adoptive dd.

But working with the Good Rock Foundation opened my eyes to all the people who think they can go abroad and adopt from there because the rules are less stringent, because there aren't as many checks, because those children are cuter etc. I don't know what your reasons were Rebecca or anyone on this thread so I won't speculate, but if you've adopted from abroad I'm surprised you aren't aware of the strength of feeling against this practise and why.

Unicef have warned against adopting from abroad because of unscrupulous agencies who aim to make profits out of overseas adoption.
"But the UN children's agency, Unicef, warns that lack of legal oversight in some countries "has spurred the growth of an industry around adoption, where profit, rather than the best interests of children, take centre stage".

It advises against allowing children to be adopted from countries affected by natural disasters, such as the Indian Ocean tsunami, because homes can often be found within their community.

There is a growing awareness worldwide of the potential harm that can be done in uprooting a child from its own culture and taking it to an alien land."

The reason I feel so strongly is because I know that in China a lot of children - girls - were being sold into the sex trade by these so-called adoption agencies. They were handed over to the US and other countries in exchange for money, no questions asked.

So yes I did deliberately offend. Sorry, but I'm sure that if you care about these children you'll also care about the wider issues affecting them.

'Well I didn't choose to give birth expat, as you bloody well know. I got pregnant by accident.'

Actually, no, I didn't know that.

And don't you have two? So two accidents, then.

Yes, two accidents. Would you like to know more of my family history so you can scavenge among the bits in the hope of finding a bit of gristle to throw to the others?

Do you have any objections to the rest of my argument that we can debate or would you prefer that I just upload my family tree to you?