To DEMAND the birth I want not what I have been told I can have??

[BigMomma3]

No am not selfish or reckless or irresponsible btw, but as this WILL be my last baby (4th) I want a good experience without the intervention of harrassed midwives and arrogant doctors that I have had before. I hate the feeling of losing control over what to do with my own body and my experience of staying in hospital after birth has been terrible . I have been told I am high risk so will have to give birth in hospital, cannot use birthing pool etc la la la. The reasons I am high risk are:

1. Previous pre-eclampsia at 39+5 weeks (1st baby 13 years ago) so was induced with no pain relief (too terrified to have an epidural), very painful, midwife telling me to quieten down and trying to get me to lay on my back with legs in stirrups (most indignified way to give birth ever). Pre-eclampsia may or may not happen again, even 'low' risk women can get this.
2. DD2 had serious problems which we found out about at 30 weeks so was stillborn after doctor did a sweep in induce labour(again doctor grabbed my legs to get me in stirrups, telling me that I should be looking forward to having this baby (did not bother reading notes before she came in) . Now they have put down that I have a history of premature birth due to this when it was initiated on purpose . Obviously any problems with this baby would be picked up before the birth so it's really irrelevant.
3. History of twins (DSs1&2) - why does that make me high risk? Obviously I would not go into labour not knowing whether I am having 1 or 2 babies so that should not really affect the birth either.
4. Previous c section - that was elective due to twins being in wrong places - nobody will know if I will need one again until the last few weeks or so of the pregnancy.

Obviously if I have any issues with blood pressure, heart rates etc I will do as I'm told but I object to being told by my midwife 'oooh I doubt they'll let you do that' when I said I wanted as 'back to basic's' a birth as possible with an ideally, HOME VBAC water birth. So AIBU to march into my consultant's office next week and tell him how I want it to be and stick to my guns unless problems arise that need intervention??

Mattellie - They aren't allowed to but it doesn't stop them.

With DD2 I got told I had to come in when I phoned at 5am as the MWs had been working all night and were too tired too ttiredo work whilst still on shift, I'd have got the sack for that??? I handed the phone to DH who told them we had a doula and were not coming in as I was fine. We would wait until shift change(7am). When 7am rolled around we had 2 bright eyed and bushy tailed MWs to deliver DD2 at 10.30am. Well there was only 1 at the birth in the end but that is another story .

With DD3 I got told they had no MWs and I had to come in. I told them I wasn't moving as I had booked a homebirth and if they didn't send out a MW I would just have to do it with the doula and DH. On their heads be it. Insufficent planning on their part did not constitute an emergency on mine.

They called back in 5 mins saying a MW I knew and the on-call supervisor of Midwifery (who wasn't actually on call at the time) were on route. When they arrived it turned out that only the MW I knew was on call for home births in the whole area. As you have to have two for the delivery stage of birth this would mean no mum could have a home birth in the whole PCT area . Who the frick shedules like that????

I ended up transferring in as whilst I wanted a home birth I wanted to give birth in the safest way/place. When the situation changed so did the safest way/place of birth.

This is a fantastic discussion that's errupted and it just highlights how much humans have lost sight of what labour is - A NATURAL INVOLUNTARY PROCESS.

Oxytocin and endorphins are perfectly balanced in each women to help deliver a baby. It's only in recent history (last 100 years) that we have medicalised birth, and it's gone crazy.

A labouring woman should be in a dark, quiet place and be allowed to do what she wants during the process. This is the best she can do for herself and her baby.

Dr Odent is a world authority on childbirth since the 1970s and has vast experience and research, he hasn't just written "some book" but he is re-educating the hospitals and women about what birthing really is.

I agree with others too, getting a doula, as I did, gives you a strong voice to negotiate for you.

In an ideal world NJWS that would be so, but the OP has a history which has to be taken into account.

You know that natural doesn't always means good don't you NJWS, a lot of women DIED from this natural process. There might be an argument that the birth process has gone the other way and it is now too medicalised but it would be interesting to see how the
cascade of intervention in hospoitals would decline if more women put faith in themselves and educated themselves about labour (what you usually in homebirth experiences is someone who has educated themselves so knows what to expect).

LibrasBiscuitsOfFortune: Yes, I realise women continue to die in childbirth around the world, and I would add that, had a complication arisen for me, I would happily have gone to hospital, I'm not that stupid.

However, there is now overwhelming evidence that a relaxed labouring woman has a better chance of a natural birth, than one being examined, asked questions of, given drugs, made to feel it's taking too long/too short, hearing other women on the ward giving birth, bright lights, hospital smells - all stimulating adrenalin production therefore increasing the pain.

In my area, East Sussex, the midwives are all pushing ('scuse the pun) for more homebirths because they know they are safer.

Yes but could one of the reasons they are more relaxed at home be because the women who are homebirthing are more educated about the birthing process?

What I am saying is I wonder if the intervention in hospitals would decline if more women who decided to birth in hospitals were better educated about labour and were better supported to say no I don't want examinations/drugs etc (and as it's the midwives who are usually front-line at the hospital for a birthing mother shouldn't they take some responsibilty for it being so medicalise). It is possible to have a nice birth in hospital.

If a midwife "pushed" me to have a homebirth I would tell her to f off. Whilst I am happy for midwives to support a mother who wants a homebirth I would not want anyone "pushed" into a homebirth who wasn't 100% behind the idea.

I haqda HB refused becausemy first baby was a pre-ecmalpsia delivery too

It was my 4th

I arguedand got a wonderful HB. HAd I notr done so I would ahve had him on the roadside as it was all so quick. Sothe suggested hospitaldelivery could never have happened.

good luck

Oh and yes

I used the AIMS letter

I wrote to the Consultant direct instead of going through obnoxious antenatalclinic MW who wouldn't even discuss

The HB was given the go aheadon the conditions that my BP was in the normalrange at 34 weeks, I agreed to atransfer if recommended for safety reasons and as long as I acknowedgedrisks of transfer.That was fine,I wanted allthat anyway. I have a dislike of hospitaldelivereis,not a death wish. Indeed,as I ahd pointed out to ANU MW I had canceled a previous HB through my own choice as I felt it wassafer for methen with a low iron level to delvier in hospital.

The wholelabout was 35 minutes,and I booked in aDoula thank goodness as only one MW arrived on time. But it was a good delviery in terms of being what I wanted and I am glad I had it.

My case was a bitmorecomplicated- SN kids with childcare issues, etc- but I would say go ahad, fight your corner with one eye on the safety.

YANBU, I've just had my booking appt and due to DD being a cs I've been told that if I haven't gone into spontaneous labour by 40 weeks then I'll either be induced or have another cs. I've also been told that I'm not allowed a water birth. Stuff them all, I want a water birth (I'll go into hospital cos I've not had a VB yet), I don't want to be induced and I'll only have a cs if I need one, not because it suits them to give me one. Mind you, I'm only 14wks so I haven't told anyone that yet
Good luck! The mw did say that they can only recommend and that if you really fight it they'll have to give in...

"What I am saying is I wonder if the intervention in hospitals would decline if more women who decided to birth in hospitals were better educated about labour"

Hmmm. I think it's probably more to do with the fact that we are mammals, and like all other mammals can experience disruptions in the 'hormonal cascade' necessary for normal birth if we're moved in labour, put in an unfamiliar environment (or one which is experienced as being hostile) or otherwise interfered with too much.

I don't know about the moved in labour bit but the experienced as being hostile is a preconception that can be altered and otherwise interfered with too much again can be put down to a women or her supporter not standing up for herself (and why do midwives do more internal examinations in hospital than they would do for a HB, a doctor isn't usually called unless the midwife thinks it's necessary)

"You know that natural doesn't always means good don't you NJWS, a lot of women DIED from this natural process."

If you read the accounts of midwives from the 18th and 19th centuries, what you see is that the vast majority of healthy women carrying just one baby came through birth in reasonable health.

Women who died in childbirth often died because of conditions like contracted pelvis linked to childhood malnutrition, or of sepsis following birth caught from midwives and medics who didn't wash their hands before examining them.

"There might be an argument that the birth process has gone the other way"

Not 'might be'. Almost all HCP's involved in the delivery of maternity care are clear on this subject - that operative delivery rates could safely be reduced by quite a significant margin.

"it would be interesting to see how the
cascade of intervention in hospoitals would decline if more women put faith in themselves and educated themselves about labour"

I don't agree. Women are reliant on midwives giving them space to labour normally. They shouldn't have to argue about protocols for managing labour while they are giving birth. It all boils down to hospitals having a 'one size fits all' strategy for managing risk in childbirth - which leaves many women like myself floundering.

"the experienced as being hostile is a preconception that can be alterd"

How? move all the sick and dying people out? Reduce hospitals to a 100th of their size? Having a dozen midwives working on the labour ward looking after just one woman each, instead of having 120 staff on the rota - with constant coming and going?

Hospitals are intrinsically stressful places for human beings - full of worried relatives and overworked staff. Maternity wards are particularly chaotic places because of the lack of control over the ebb and flow of work.

Labour wards are designed to accommodate heavy human traffic and to facilitate the work of staff - especially when that work is life-saving as it sometimes is.

Personally I'm amazed so many women have normal births in hospital, rather than so few.

It is a bit odd isn't it, that women who are in labour are expected to go to seek out a midwife instead of a midwife coming to them? A normal birth at the end of a normal pregnancy is not a medical situation, it could be and if it becomes so then it makes sense to see medical help. But before that it really does make more sense for the assistance to come to the woman in labour rather than the other way around.

WSS. Great post, Standanddeliver.

One of the big things about a hospital birth that actually terrifies me is the forcible moving - you start labouring on a crowded ward, and then are moved down to delivery when the staff consider you are in enough pain. That is really scary. (When I was admitted at 41+4 with 'flu, I made a new, secret birth plan with a sympathetic MW that basically involved her pretending she didn't know I was in labour until it was "too late" to move me!) But just that one simple thing could change labour and birth for a lot of women.

Or continuous monitoring. No need for it, it doesn't improve outcomes. IMO, it is used by some MW as a power thing, you are implicitly restrained/ strapped down - it takes a big effort to say "NO," take it off and get up.

This time I'm going to insist the monitoring is done off and on. I was so worried about the heartbeat that I couldn't focus and the freaking strap kept slipping down and getting my beat instead of DD's. It was ridiculous! DD's heartbeat was fine the whole time anyway...I know to be a lot more vocal this time round!

chulita I had the same problem. They would have sectioned me only my mother was with me (she's a midwife) and she insisted it was my HB not babs that it was picking up.

I also got the "no midwives to cover a HB" excuse - ex hub told them not to worry, we'd cope on our own, bless him. That worked - but then meconium in my waters meant they forced me in and I ended up on the fucking monitor.

bigmomma very best of luck to you. YANBU. Hold your own and be strong.

Givecarrotsachance - and what was the outcome of being forced into hospital and attatched to a 'fucking' monitir ? A healthy baby perhaps ? As opposed to one seriously ill from MAS ?

sassy

As I explained in my post the outcome of being forced into hospital and onto a monitor was NEARLY a completely unnecessary C-section - ie major abdominal surgery for No Reason other than the MWs were understaffed and therefore unable to read the monitor properly.

Very sadly, many women are forced into my position without having an attentive doula/knowledgeable representative who can stop their babies being ripped from their womb in a way which itself causes far more problems than it's stopping - in the case where there wasn't a problem at all in the first place.

Fortunately my lovely boy is absolutely fine. I'm sure that if they'd forced me into a section he'd be fine. I, however, would have a completely unnecessary scar across my womb (not to mention 6 weeks of pain and discomfort after the birth), which would affect my chances of a natural delivery this time, and the NHS would have paid thousands for the operation, for No Benefit At All to Anyone Whatsoever.

So, if you can give me any reason at all to feel that the use of the monitor helped me, my baby or the NHS, please do so.

I assumed from your post that the reason that you were admitted to hospital and monitored was because of the meconium ? A situation which carries a SIGNIFICANT level of risk to the unborn child and is usually a sign of foetal distress ? So what should the midwife at home have done ?

I can understand the point that had you not been on the monitor, then the confusion over the HR wouldn't have arisen, but are you really angry that the MW at home acted in the best interests of your baby by responding to an emergency situation and getting you to hospital ?

I do think moving can cause problems forsome women.

I had a horrible delivery with ds1, part unavoidable part due to some seriously bad attitudes I enounterd (eg the Obst who wrote my PET off as a nervous mummy,when that PET was causing IUGR,and toldme off for selfadmitting even though I hadn't, MW unit had sent me). There were other things- MW lost my bloods (risk of HELLP),didnt tell me that DS1's heart was dangerously low but they could locate neither a Consultant nor theatre,and hence no C section or pain relief.

I am sure that as a result, the reason my next labour stopped the minute I set foot inside a hospital was from accumulated fear.
Not necessarily of labour- I managed that OK- but the ridicule that I was subjected to,and the complete lack of information I was given.

I was right to be scared BTW: even though I had selected a different hospital the awful registrar had typically been placed there. Luckily MW's were seemingly wise to him: he stood in my way as I tried to enter the unit and asked MW'What is this woman doing here?'-and MW elbowed him out the way and said 'giving birth' with a real evil glare at him.

Luckily ds3's birth was much quicker and by the time I got to the hospital
thinsg were well underway, which set tone for the HB.

There were other reasons- nobody can tellme a hospitaldelivery would have been safer for me becuase I wouldn't have ever got there. Also no hospital ever coped well with my food allergies and I had been left unfed. Plus childcare.

Iam in favour of options. No forced hospital deliveries or home deliveries forwomen expecting an uncomplicated delivery.

sassy

I'm not angry about anything, my lovely. My son is 5 years old now and the bad energies from still being angry would not be good for anyone, now would it.

I find it very sad that MWs are forced into a position where they can't practise properly and don't have the confidence to do HBs even with normal and everyday "complications".

Mec. can be an indication of problems, but it can also be perfectly normal. Given the right training, support, experience and ability to make their own judgements, MW can decided for themselves whether the mec. is caused by FD or just because the baby was touching cloth.

I don't blame my MW for this lack of ability/confidence. I'm just sad that the NHS hasn't managed to sort it out. In my case, it was simply an excuse to avoid a HB - it could have been anything else that she came up with (the classic of there weren't enough MWs being her first tactic).

My mother would have gladly delivered me at home, despite the mec. But the law says she can't, so she didn't. So no, I wasn't worried about the mec., myself.

However, of course I am grateful for a safe delivery - it was DESPITE the "care" I received, not because of it which is the saddening part.

Furthermore, "FD" covers a very wide range of problems, from severe and actual distress/oxygen deprivation to simply the baby needing a wriggle. It sounds terrible, usually isn't.

Carrot - think it was the'fucking monitor' bit that made me assume anger Absolutely agree about the training and support that midwives. At the end of the day, it all comes down to the level of risk that you are prepared to take. I think there has also got to be a degree of weight given to the experiences of a midwife - someone who has delivered or resuscitated a seriously ill MAS baby is less likely to adopt a wait and see approach for a homebirth.

"Mec. can be an indication of problems, but it can also be perfectly normal"

But who would want to take that risk? MAS kills babies. Until you've seen a perfectly healthy term baby die from MAS, you really do not understand.