To DEMAND the birth I want not what I have been told I can have??

[BigMomma3]

No am not selfish or reckless or irresponsible btw, but as this WILL be my last baby (4th) I want a good experience without the intervention of harrassed midwives and arrogant doctors that I have had before. I hate the feeling of losing control over what to do with my own body and my experience of staying in hospital after birth has been terrible . I have been told I am high risk so will have to give birth in hospital, cannot use birthing pool etc la la la. The reasons I am high risk are:

1. Previous pre-eclampsia at 39+5 weeks (1st baby 13 years ago) so was induced with no pain relief (too terrified to have an epidural), very painful, midwife telling me to quieten down and trying to get me to lay on my back with legs in stirrups (most indignified way to give birth ever). Pre-eclampsia may or may not happen again, even 'low' risk women can get this.
2. DD2 had serious problems which we found out about at 30 weeks so was stillborn after doctor did a sweep in induce labour(again doctor grabbed my legs to get me in stirrups, telling me that I should be looking forward to having this baby (did not bother reading notes before she came in) . Now they have put down that I have a history of premature birth due to this when it was initiated on purpose . Obviously any problems with this baby would be picked up before the birth so it's really irrelevant.
3. History of twins (DSs1&2) - why does that make me high risk? Obviously I would not go into labour not knowing whether I am having 1 or 2 babies so that should not really affect the birth either.
4. Previous c section - that was elective due to twins being in wrong places - nobody will know if I will need one again until the last few weeks or so of the pregnancy.

Obviously if I have any issues with blood pressure, heart rates etc I will do as I'm told but I object to being told by my midwife 'oooh I doubt they'll let you do that' when I said I wanted as 'back to basic's' a birth as possible with an ideally, HOME VBAC water birth. So AIBU to march into my consultant's office next week and tell him how I want it to be and stick to my guns unless problems arise that need intervention??

OP - sorry haven't read all the thread so apologise if I'm repeating advice other people have already given.

I was 'high risk' in my second pg (very large baby, gestational diabetes) and felt that I simply COULDN'T give birth safely or happily in hospital, or according to the protocols my consultant advised. I'd had a horrible first birth their which had involved shed loads of intervention, which I felt could have been avoided with better care.

I opted out - had a homebirth with an independent midwife.

Did the same again with my third, but ended up transferring in for failure to progress. Midwife came with me and I had a normal birth in hospital.

I feel for you. I would also second that you get a doula, or if you can't afford this a kind, humorous but bolshy friend to come to hospital with you.

I also think you could consider contacting the supervisor of midwives at the hospital and ask for some senior midwifery input. I know people who have done this and they found that it made a real difference.

Lastly, if you've got some spare cash sploshing around, how about an independent midwife? I'll never regret the money I spent on my care - I felt so well looked after.

Good luck with your labour - hope it all goes well!

I think, given your circumstances, you have made the right decision to give birth in the MLU too. I think, off the top of your head, you probably have approx a 70/ 75% chance of a successful VBAC. However, if things go seriously wrong and your uterine scar ruptures (which they occasionally do) it will be far better for you and the baby to be in a place where they can deliver you immediately!
I think you are being really sensible to consider everything carefully and hopefully you can have a much more relaxed birth than the previous times.

"Go along with whatever consultant says, they will act on your best interest and your babies better being safe with backup equipment goodluck with it all"

One of my friends - well built girl in her 20's, in good health - was advised to have a c-section because a scan had suggested her first baby was over 10 lbs. Her consultant suggested it even though it doesn't conform to NICE guidelines.

She had c-section. Baby was 9lbs 3oz. She had to go through major surgery and all her future pregnancies will now be 'high risk' (if she has another one - half of all c-section mums don't go on to have another baby).

Sometimes consultants get it wrong, and there is not always consensus about what constitutes optimal care. Everyone has the right to a second opinion, and everyone has the right to opt for the birth that they feel able to cope with - as long as they understand what the risks and benefits are.

Bigmomma - Like Edam I have epilepsy and I have 3 DDs.

DD1 was induced because 'I induce all my epileptic ladies at 38 weeks. See the mw and she'll book you in' as per my cons. It took 4 days, epidural, max. syntocinon and ventouse for her to be delivered. A lovely experience all round . My being induced was supposed to be less stressful than going into labour naturally and it was wonderful dragging my SPD ridden body on crutches up and down the ward trying to get baby in a better position, 6 hours sleep over 4 days, excruciating pelvic exams at least twice a day only to find I still had a Bishop's score of 0. Bloody restful my arse. DD1 was 7lb 12oz.

DD2 was a planned home birth, I have honestly have had more painful periods and she was born in 4 minutes. I had to fight to get this but it was the best option for all involved. I had the most fantastic doula with DH & I who made the world of difference. DD2 was 7lb 6oz.

DD3 was a planned homebirth but we transfered in as I had meconium in my waters. This was probably due to the 3 weeks of labour before my waters broke. I had a hospital birth leaning over the back of the bed with the doula on one side and DH on the other. DD3 was born in 17 minutes with a 37cm head and weigh in at 8lb 10oz. Again I had to fight but ths time I knew how less stressful home birth can be I wanted that again. As the community MWs knew how much I need the birth I wanted they bent over backwards to make it happen.

Just some (contraversial) advice now after the rant of ages:-

If you want a homebirth threaten to go through with a freebirth if the hosptal won't send out a CMW when you phone up in labour.

You want the MW led Unit, start the 'negociations' with the cons. as a home birth. They will offer the MWU as a 'reward' for not homebirthing.

Concede some things really are in the best interests of you and your baby. For example having an epidural can increase your chances of rupture by you not being able feel when things start to go wrong rather than it only being picked the baby in distress. So you would be better off using alternative methods of pain relief like water

Constant monitoring doesn't have to done you could have sonicaid ever 10/15 minutes.

You don't have to give birth on your back, and in fact as you have had a previous CS I would labour as upright as possible, and push on all fours, sqatting, birth stool, etc so as to make each push as effective as possible, the harder/longer you have to work to get baby out the more likely I would think a rupture would be.

Beverley Beech (AIMS) is your new best friend.

You don't have to be allowed to do anything - you are an adult and don't need to be patronised.

Do your research. Yes you want the birth of your dreams but is it really achievable and most importantly safe for you and baby. A knee jerk reaction from people of 'hospital is safe, home is dangerous' isn't true in all cases.

I am very sorry for the lost of your daughter and my heart goes out to you.

p.s. I'm not a Dr, nor do I play one on TV so please take my advice/ramblings as one mum to another.

bloody hell truthsweet, did he (assuming it was a he) really say that? Appalling. I had the maternity team communicating with the neurologists so at least there was some level of understanding instead of 'OMG we've got a weirdo'. Clearly the consultant was wrong wrong wrong - four days and all that intervention shows that dd was just not ready to be born.

Yup, my Obstetric Consultant (male) said that with a really patronising tone of voice too like I was mentally deficient. Very luckily I wised up by DD2. Not that I got to see a neuro. until I was 37 weeks so none of that join up care bobbins but hey ho.

Yup, you are correct, DD1 was NOT ready to be born, she started to develop jaundice within 18 hours of birth and had stopped feeding properly by the time we went home from hospital. It took 3 days of double bilibed therapy before she was released being exclusvely bottle fed and was until she was 8 weeks old when I weaned her back to bfing.

I hope you had a better time of it

By the way what are dp/dh view on it all how does he feel about your concerns.

Big Momma I had a miserable first hospital birth and flat out refused to ever have another baby in hospital - so went on to have my other two babies at home.

You ARE considering your baby by wanting to have the best birth possible. Unnecessary intervention can be harmful to both mother and child, and depression due to a traumatic birth experience can interfere with bonding.

You are trying to do your best for both of you - there is nothing selfish about that.

Practise saying no. NO I do not want to have a highly managed birth. NO, you may not do an examination. NO I will not put my legs in stirrups. If you feel these things are unnecessary, you do not have to do them!

Truth, I kind of feel embarrassed to say I had a straightforward delivery on a midwife-led unit and it was all fine (bar a third degree tear) now I've heard about your awful experiences. eek.

Probably helped that I was in London, so when I suddenly developed epilepsy I was seen at a tertiary centre for neurology and was having my baby at another leading hospital (although leading edge does not mean actually bothering to employ more than one midwife on an allegedly midwife-led unit, it seems).

My decisions regarding home birth were not 'gambles'. They were well researched and highly considered choices.

New studies have found that home birth for low risk mothers is actually SAFER than hospital birth due to many factors - much less risk of infection being one of them. Also far less risk of a 'cascade of intervention' which blights so many womens birth experiences.

Don't get me wrong, I am extremely grateful that I had an NHS hospital in the vicinity should I have needed it - but I didn't.

I am not a health proffessional, so cannot say what your level of risk truly is OP. But I do know many women who have had successful v-bacs at home or in birthing centres.

OP, I hope you get the birth experience you and your baby deserve.

Whatever happens - all the very best with your beautiful new child.

Big Momma, I have a stack of information on VBAC inlcuding the NICE guidelines etc which I'll dig out links for tomorrow if I get on.....

YANBU to want the birth on your terms, but my advice would be to not demand it, but to bend over backwards to try and get the necessary people on your side.

I recently had a VBA2C, and hired a doula who was also on the maternity services liason committee and who knew the right consultant to speak to (who herself had had a water birth). Gather as much information on all the possible risks as you can, so that you know exactly what the medical team is concerned with. The main one with a VBAC is scar rupture, but this is still pretty low in terms of risk, and which I deemed to be within acceptable limits, given the myriad of other things that can go wrong.

I went into it with an ideal in my head; no continuous monitoring, no rupture of membranes, no scalp clip (as this would mean PROM) mobile etc etc, and in the end, although the reality was a bit different from my ideal....couldn't be too mobile due to crushingly painful SPD, needed scalp clip but as my waters had gone already I was OK with this and finally it was a forceps delivery as DS2 got stuck....I was consulted throughout the whole process and given time to discuss things with my doula and DH before making a decision, and we had a very relaxed theatre experience with dimmed lights, and DS being delivered onto me before being taken off for all the checks etc. So, although mot the birth I had hoped for, I still feel it was my birth rather than a birth that happened around me (like my DS1 had been)

Get yourself a good advocate; find out who is the most sympathetic consultant and get swapped to their list and be as aware as you can be about the risks and assess their acceptability to you and your DP. Also make sure you see your consultant as all the registrars I saw prior to meeting with mine were all telling me I "wouldn't be allowed" a trial of labour.

And I'm not sure if it's been linked already, but I think THIS is the thread someone else was looking for earlier on in the thread.

Good Luck

Glitterknickaz - Pre-emptively threatening to charge staff with assault? You have got to be kidding me.

IMO, any hospital would be within their rights to refuse to treat a patient like that.

Thanks LackaDaisy it was that thread and it was BetsyBoop posts you should read BigMomma, it was from 2007 however so don't know if she is still around!! She didn't get her vbac but there is so much useful information she provided that you could use.

For all the people saying "trust the doctors" and "it's not all about you". Have you actually read ANY research about labour. Do you understand for example what is meant by the "cascade of intervention"? One intervention leads to another and another and.... you get my gist. In some (maybe many) cases these interventions cause a change in the baby's surroundings and they become stressed - then before you know where you are - theatre and emergency LSCS - I'll say for darkandstormy - wake up and smell the coffee yourself.

I have been a midwife for many years and I love all the technology at my disposal now - in some cases I have been supremely glad it was there and there is no doubt that we have children and adults walking around now who would not have survived if they had been born years before. However, I also suspect there are those who are NOT walking around - who didn't survive the birth process but just might have done if the hospitals/midwives and doctors had left nature well alone. I am all for technology but we need to harness it's use and make it work for the benefit of mothers and babies - not use it willy nilly. Do you know the risk of a uterine scar rupturing? - It's tiny and there are well documented warning signs which should tell any on the ball midwife or doctor to look more closely. The OP is not objecting to technology but IS objecting to a production line mentality and asking to be treated as an individual with care tailored to meet her needs and the needs of her baby in a sensitive way - not - "you are a VBAC and will be monitored/have this and that intervention because these are our rules". Personally I don't see any problem in the OP asking for her care to benefit her baby and herself.

All the best to you BM - hope everything goes well.

Edam - Did you develop epilepsy in pg? I have heard of gestational epilepsy (much like gestational diabetes) but don't know diddly squat about it! Did it go away after delivery?

I have been fairly lucky with seizures in pg (4 in pg1, none in pg2 and 3 in pg3) none of which were tonic-clonic but were drop type seizures. I've had epilepsy since 17 and am now 30 (sob ) so I've been having fun with the NHS for decades now....
I've been tested for heroin/crack as I have dodgy veins and they require many attempts to draw blood if you are inexperienced so it's appeared I've had track marks and being 17 who would not be on crack,
I've been told I was being punished by God for having pre-marital sex,
that if you don't bite your tongue during a seizure it's not epilepsy,
by a cons. 'if you don't have brain damage I'd be surprised' before ordering a CAT scan, oh the list goes on.......

Sorry OP for the hi-jack hope you've been getting some helpful info from other posters . Have you joined the homebirthUK@Yahoogroups as it can connect you with some very knowledgeable people.

Message withdrawn

jolly pirate well aware of research dp is doctor- its called giving yourself and your baby in plain terms the best chance.We are talking about a fifth baby being born at home after a history of pregnancy and labour complications.

Truth, no, started having seizures out of the blue when I was 28. Was lucky enough to live next door to a specialist neurology department so didn't have all the messing around with GPs and long waits that I know some people face. And also lucky that I have fairly simple sleep epilepsy which is perfectly controlled by drugs, and only happened when I was safely tucked up in bed.

Also good in that specialist neurologists put me on a drug (Lamictal) which is thought to be OK in pregnancy because I was of childbearing age. Horribly some docs stuff girls and women on epilim, which can damage a foetus, and by the time someone is pregnant it's too late to do much about it.

Had two or three seizures in pregnancy due to increased blood volumes diluting the amount of medicine in your system - neurologists had explained this was a risk but you have to weigh it up against the risk of upping the drugs which may affect the baby. So I took the risk of seizures and then upped the drugs. Fortunately ds was absolutely fine, although obviously another person might make a different choice.

GothAnneGeddes unless you've been assaulted in labour (VE's without consent, completely unnecessarily as it turns out, by a HCP who didn't even bother to introduce themselves first) then you won't understand.

Trust me it happens.

I was assaulted by a midwife who performed a sweep without even telling me what she was going to do, let alone obtaining my consent. In law, that is an assault, and it certainly felt like one, left me in tears. I complained to the trust who were full of apologies and rushed to assure me that they had discussed my case at a departmental meeting, had given words of advice to the midwife and nothing like that would ever happen again. So they were clearly aware it was an assault too and were v. keen to put everything right so I wouldn't sue. (Which I had no plans to do anyway as it happens.)

Would imagine being assaulted in labour is a million times worse.

Darkandstormy, is he an obstetrician?
And if he is, does that make you qualified?

Because my Dad has a qualification in Obstetrics, I know a nurse, and my friend is an Antenatal teacher. Does that mean I get to dispense gloomy warnings as a birth professional by osmosis? {grin]

Edam, I also take Lamictal and was put on it at 22 as my teeth were in danger of falling out on phenytoin.

I have also been assaulted by a MW - I have a phobia of needles in my hands and refused a canula to be sited in the back of my hand. I offered my forearm as an alternative but she wouldn't have it and forcibly inserted it in my hand (which I was sitting on before she snatched it up).

But to go into a hospital saying "If you do x, y, z" without my informed consent, I will prosecute"... it's just such an aggressive tactic. I know if I were the MW I would be offended by the implication that I care so little about my patients that I would go around harming them willy nilly.

HCP's are people too. They are not evil. They do not want to harm you or your baby. Are those in the Obs and Gynae field over cautious? Probably, but then so would you be if you had seen worst case scenarios that often.

To the OP, I'm going to reiterate what others have said and say find a MW/consultant you trust and come to an agreement together. Be open minded and view it as a collaborative process, rather then I say/They say.

?If you want a homebirth threaten to go through with a freebirth if the hosptal won't send out a CMW when you phone up in labour.?

Gosh, truthsweet what an awful time you had. Well done for sticking to your guns on your subsequent births.

Just one point: hospitals are not allowed to refuse to send out a MW, it?s against the law. What they do is rely on heavily pregnant women not being in a fit state to insist upon their rights by saying things like: ?You?ve got to come in,? or ?by refusing to come in you?re over-stretching the department and causing problems elsewhere? or ?we can?t send anybody out, we?re short-staffed?.

Personally I think issuing threats about suing is likely to be counter-productive (you do, after all, want the medical team to be on your side), but you are perfectly entitled to politely insist on your rights. In fact, Aims have a draft letter which addresses precisely this issue.