To be offended by our neighbour’s attitude to benefits?

[thisxgirl]

I may be flamed for this but have been stewing all morning and need to get it off my chest and also test the waters to see if I?m just stuck-up/naïve/whatever.

DP befriended our neighbour over the summer, while I was pregnant. He has a shady past but is very polite and thoughtful, would do anything to help us and I haven?t really taken particular offence to anything he has said before.

He has been on sick benefits for a considerable amount of time. He has manic depression. Despite this, when I first met him, he was casually working with his brother-in-law labouring. He worked sporadically so sometimes full time and other times he would have a week off. I never saw any aspect of manic or depressive behaviour during this time so wasn?t entirely convinced he was actually ill (although I appreciate, from personal experience also, that mental illness isn?t always evident) and didn?t agree with him claiming benefits while earning cash on the side. You know, if he can work for cash, he can work and pay taxes, I thought. Similarly, if he can offer to help DP with building our decking and can get pissed every night and generally be up for doing fun things like riding his pitbike, he must be able to work? But I didn?t interfere because I know a lot of people do this and really, is it my business what lifestyle choice he makes whether I agree with it or not? I reasoned that a system which allows this is more to blame than an individual who is narrow-mindedly taking advantage of it.

The work with his brother-in-law dried up and since then he spends his days sitting on his arse in his flat, drinking, smoking and posting status updates on Facebook. Lately he seems to go through bouts of mania and depression ? i.e, he can be very hyperactive when around other people (shouting, screaming, running around, so enthusiastic about stuff he breaks it) and then goes for days not leaving his home ? it does seem worse since he stopped casually working. He admits himself that he is better when his mind and body are occupied and to some extent, this is true of everybody isn?t it? Although I appreciate that mental illness can be crippling but again, if you can find the energy and motivation for fun activities, you can find the energy for work.

Last night he was having a beer in our dining room with DP, talking about how he?s never going to work for the rest of his life because he can?t afford to (he?s better off on benefits) and he finds it too stressful. He said very matter-of-factly that he intends to be on full benefits for the rest of his life and has no other plans ? say he lives until 60 or 70, that?s 30 or 40 years. He was so unabashed ? he had no shame whatsoever that, despite being apparently able to work (having done so when the work was available), he planned to be a parasite on the system for the rest of his years. It didn?t occur to him that it isn?t fair for him to expect others to financially support his choice. It didn?t occur to him that the country is in incredible debt and the benefits system ? as a safety net for those who genuinely need it ? was being jeopardized by people like him.

From the perspective of a taxpayer, I was so insulted. When I was heavily pregnant, I worked six days a week and paid a proportionately large amount of tax, while he sunned himself in his garden. My dad bought this house for peanuts and worked on it so that when he died a few years ago, its value exceeded the inheritance tax cap and had he not been frugal in some areas of his life (one foreign holiday in 20 years, drove an eight year old Ford KA) and saved £60,000 in the knowledge that I would have to pay huge inheritance tax upon his death, I would have had to have sold this house to pay the tax owed upon death. My 73 year old stepfather is still working because after his state pension is taxed, he doesn?t have enough to pay his mortgage. It?s one thing for our neighbour to make his choice but to be so brazen when around other people who do pay taxes is rude, in my opinion.

AIBU? Should I have given him my opinion or would it create needless tension? Am I naïve to not want my DS to grow up with people like him as role model?

YABU unreasonable to have have written such an unreasonably long and detailed post. I got about a third of the way through and gave up.

Sorry! I do tend to go on.

Do you know anything about manic depression , or as I believe it is correctly named bipolar disorder ?
Has it occured to you that his comments about never working again might be a manifestation of his depression ?
If he is unstable mentally, do you not think it may be very difficult to find work ,other than for his family?
How do you know he hasn't declared his earnings while working with his BIL?

You don't know much about what it is like to live with a bi-polar disorder, so you can't really criticise.

He does sound unstable to me sorry and you dont know the details of the work he has been doing so its hard to say if yabu or not.

He's your neighbour, so there is no reason for you to see 'evidence' of him being bi-polar.

It isn't a case of either work or benefits. Many people have a combination of both. He may get some benefits due to his mental health issues that he is entitled to as well as doing some bits of work.

Pregnancy isn't an illness or disorder, so unless you had some kind of medical complications, I don't understand how you working when pregnant is comparable to a person with bipolar disorder.

I think bipolar disorder is one of the most difficult of all the mental health issues that people can have. I am absolutely in favour of paying benefits to such people, including some benefits to those who have this disorder and work.

I can kind of see where you're coming from, but overall I'd say YABU. My mother is also on long term benfits due to manic depression, she has been on them for 20 or so years now and she will never work again.

As with your neighobour, she probably could work the occaisonal week or so provided the work is casual (although she doesn't as she would get into trouble) The trouble for her and for your neighbour is that, if they gets a taxable regualr job and gives up benfits, they leaves themselve very vulnerable and without his benefits if he should have a manic phase and be unable to work (which is highly likely, given the behaviour you describe when he is an manic phase he would not be able to work through this)

As you've mentioned, it probably is good for him to work, but for someone who's mental health leaves them unstable this isn't easy. My mother would like to work, but she can't risk coming off benefits, and then becoming ill again and being left without income or benefits. In my mothers case, it's also true that she finds any amount of stress diffciult to cope with, and the stress of a regualr job could easily be enough to cause another manic episode. This generally leads her to being sectioned, keeping her sectioned in hospital is very expensive and not the best use of taxpayers money either!

All in all, i can kind of see where you are coming from. I don't think your neighbour is in the wrong though, the benefit system needs to allow people in these kind of situations to work when they can, without tying them into permanent work.

sorry the above is a bit garbled! I should have said 'they leave themselves vulnerable and with out beneifts in the case of a manic phase'

, living with bipolar is awful both for the person and for family.

My nan has bipolar, terrible mental illness.

think you mind your own business and get on with your own life,

panto - I know the basics but have no personal experience so realise I may be being judgemental. Just to clarify, I have always referred to it as bipolar disorder but have fallen out of that habit with him as he refers to his illness as 'manic depression'.

I'm sure his illness makes him feel despondent about work. But I don't understand why it doesn't have a similar effect on any other aspect of his life. He goes to the gym, he socialises regularly and he will often volunteer to help with physical jobs his friends are doing.

Of course finding work is difficult for anybody in this economic climate and that will be exacerbated by his illness, but to state you intend to never even consider work for the rest of your life seems rude, company considered and because he has happily worked before. He has no family BTW - his ex and mother of his son left him and denied contact with said son when he violently assaulted her. He regrets this deeply for whatever that's worth and I haven't seen a violent side to him personally.

He is very open about having been paid cash and not paying taxes.

Chillo - I know I'm approaching this from the perspective of somebody who does not have bipolar so am possibly being judemental. That's why I'm posting here. But he is our neighbour and DP's friends so I absolutely do see and speak to him often enough to have an understanding on when he is or is not going through an episode. He has said himself that he felt much more balanced when working.

no I don't think yabu.

If he said that due to his condition he couldn't envisage ever coming off benefits then that would be understandable. But to say that he actually plans to be on benefits for the rest of his life is just wrong.

And no he shouldn't be working cash in hand. If he is capable of working sometimes then fine, but he should be declaring it.

YABU. The unpredictability of bipolar means that holding down a job is very, very difficult. His matter of fact manner might well have been influenced by his current mood. My father suffers from bipolar disorder, and regularly lost work because of it. He may sound matter of fact, but things are rarely that clear cut.

I agree with you beaker25 and also there should be better support (not just with money)for adults with mental health problems especially male adults. Where I live there is no provision or help for male adults with mental illness, you are just given tablets and councilling (first access which is crap)

Dp has some kind of mental health issues and we have struggled for years to get him help, he finds it hard to hold down a job, when he feels great he wants to work, when he feels awful he struggles and gets very paranoid. All the doctor does shrug his shoulders...

if he's claiming ESA (most likely scenario given his MH issues) then he's allowed to work up to 16hrs a week (can't remember the exact "money" amount you can earn) while legitimately claiming ESA.

The issues of being well enough to go out v work v casual work - totally different, and much more complex that it would initially appear to be

YABU - have you considered that his illness didn't get worse because he stopped working, rather he stopped working because his illness had got worse?

And PMSL about how awful it was that your dad had to live a frugal life so that you didn't have to sell his house. What do you think most people do? You sound thoroughly spoilt!

milly - he has full benefits and does not delcare his work. He is very open about this.

With hindsight, I suppose it does seem like I'm comparing pregnancy to mental illness - this wasn't my intention. I suppose I'm arguing that he is very actively doing things he wants to do - sitting drinking in beer gardens, riding his pitbike around the streets, going to the gym - and yet is apparently 'not up to working'. I guess I'm questioning how ill he actually is and I'm never going to get anywhere with that, am I? I'm no doctor. It seems like he picks and chooses what he can do and funnily enough, he wants to have fun but doesn't want to work. He has said that he CAN work if he has to but CHOOSES not to because it's 'stressful' and 'not worth it'. Sometimes you just have to do things you don't want to do in life, eg. working long hours on your feet in a stressful job while heavily pregnant. If it seemed like his illness hindered any other aspect of his life apart from work, I'd understand but he quite openly admits that he doesn't want to work and so doesn't, because he doesn't have to.

beaker - I understand your points and absolutely agree. I do think the system is at fault, rather than individuals - but I just took offence to him almost boasting that he is in this position where he can choose not to work for the rest of his life, like it was his entitlement. It's not so much about his lifestyle choice but his lack of awareness that other people might be offended when they work hard and pay huge taxes.

I'm sure that some people with long term physical conditions (who are unable to work regularly/at all) manage to have social lives and sit in pub beer gardens.

Mental illness is as serious and as debilitating as a physical illness.

YABVVVU.

I dont blame you for feeling that way at all, my sIL has bi polar and has not worked in years, but not solely because of bi polar she has a range of serious chronic conditions on top of that. What is that chap doing to help himself, is he seeing the psychologist/counsellor. I did some volunatry work at MIND and they do help people develop skills for work and seek voluntray employment

Its all well and good saying he has bi polar and cannot help it, is his family seeking help for him to enable him to cope with daily life and in general, is he on meds and look at other options to develop skills, just because he has bi polar does not mean he has to stay not working.

Stressfull can be quite a different matter to someone with a serious mental illness though. For someone with stable mental health, yes you do stressful things and you cope with it, you just have to. For someone with manic depression, stress is not always managable and will trigger another episode. Going back to my mother again, for her, the stress of a job isn't worth is, she would end up being sectioned again. That costs the taxpayer much more than keeping her on benefits.

actually - H says it's up to around £96 a week you can earn while on ESA before it affects your benefits (I think? could be wrong that's just under the amount that you start to pay tax on isn't it?)

YABU. Mind your own business.

nancy - he stopped working when the work dried up. Now he has been offered work with his BIL again but refuses to do it 'on principle' because his BIL charges the customer £120 per day for his work but he is paid £60.

And what is so spoilt about a single man choosing to leave his property that he worked hard on to his only daughter? He worked very hard and lived simply so why should the government take it all off him at death? Wouldn't you be a bit miffed if your parent's life savings went to the government at their death just so you didn't end up losing the family home they had lived and worked on all their lives?

x post. Yes I do see your point. TBH I get annoyed with my mother when she says she'll never work again, as I pay so much tax. It doesn't ever occur to her that I might find it frustrating when she says things like that! In my experience, it can be frustrating dealing with people with these sorts of illness. I often have to bite my tongue, but I know circumstances can be very difficult with mental illness.