To be offended by our neighbour’s attitude to benefits?

[thisxgirl]

I may be flamed for this but have been stewing all morning and need to get it off my chest and also test the waters to see if I?m just stuck-up/naïve/whatever.

DP befriended our neighbour over the summer, while I was pregnant. He has a shady past but is very polite and thoughtful, would do anything to help us and I haven?t really taken particular offence to anything he has said before.

He has been on sick benefits for a considerable amount of time. He has manic depression. Despite this, when I first met him, he was casually working with his brother-in-law labouring. He worked sporadically so sometimes full time and other times he would have a week off. I never saw any aspect of manic or depressive behaviour during this time so wasn?t entirely convinced he was actually ill (although I appreciate, from personal experience also, that mental illness isn?t always evident) and didn?t agree with him claiming benefits while earning cash on the side. You know, if he can work for cash, he can work and pay taxes, I thought. Similarly, if he can offer to help DP with building our decking and can get pissed every night and generally be up for doing fun things like riding his pitbike, he must be able to work? But I didn?t interfere because I know a lot of people do this and really, is it my business what lifestyle choice he makes whether I agree with it or not? I reasoned that a system which allows this is more to blame than an individual who is narrow-mindedly taking advantage of it.

The work with his brother-in-law dried up and since then he spends his days sitting on his arse in his flat, drinking, smoking and posting status updates on Facebook. Lately he seems to go through bouts of mania and depression ? i.e, he can be very hyperactive when around other people (shouting, screaming, running around, so enthusiastic about stuff he breaks it) and then goes for days not leaving his home ? it does seem worse since he stopped casually working. He admits himself that he is better when his mind and body are occupied and to some extent, this is true of everybody isn?t it? Although I appreciate that mental illness can be crippling but again, if you can find the energy and motivation for fun activities, you can find the energy for work.

Last night he was having a beer in our dining room with DP, talking about how he?s never going to work for the rest of his life because he can?t afford to (he?s better off on benefits) and he finds it too stressful. He said very matter-of-factly that he intends to be on full benefits for the rest of his life and has no other plans ? say he lives until 60 or 70, that?s 30 or 40 years. He was so unabashed ? he had no shame whatsoever that, despite being apparently able to work (having done so when the work was available), he planned to be a parasite on the system for the rest of his years. It didn?t occur to him that it isn?t fair for him to expect others to financially support his choice. It didn?t occur to him that the country is in incredible debt and the benefits system ? as a safety net for those who genuinely need it ? was being jeopardized by people like him.

From the perspective of a taxpayer, I was so insulted. When I was heavily pregnant, I worked six days a week and paid a proportionately large amount of tax, while he sunned himself in his garden. My dad bought this house for peanuts and worked on it so that when he died a few years ago, its value exceeded the inheritance tax cap and had he not been frugal in some areas of his life (one foreign holiday in 20 years, drove an eight year old Ford KA) and saved £60,000 in the knowledge that I would have to pay huge inheritance tax upon his death, I would have had to have sold this house to pay the tax owed upon death. My 73 year old stepfather is still working because after his state pension is taxed, he doesn?t have enough to pay his mortgage. It?s one thing for our neighbour to make his choice but to be so brazen when around other people who do pay taxes is rude, in my opinion.

AIBU? Should I have given him my opinion or would it create needless tension? Am I naïve to not want my DS to grow up with people like him as role model?

piglet - he isn't having counselling and he sometimes take his meds, sometimes doesn't. He was taking steroids when DP first met him but DP advised him against that and I believe he's stopped. He doesn't seem to help himself and that is so frustrating!

My mother is in a similar condition in that she has a very rare brain condition and has had to have brain surgery many times. She gave up work because any stress makes it worse.

She still has a social life, cooks, goes in the garden etc. It really is not comparable to the stress of working.

I think that it is very important that people with any kind of neurological disorders do keep active and engaged with society. It is far better for the individual and better for the taxpayer if people like this are integrated into the community with some minimal professional support, rather than put under lots of pressure and ending up hospitalised.

pure - am happy to mind my own business and have done for months. I just objected to his boasting at my dining room table.

Yes that is one of the most frustrating things about this sort of conditions, it often seems like someone will not help themself. It's part of the illness. It's not uncommon for someone with a mental illness to not really believe they are ill, and stop taking their meds. It is very difficult to watch someone do though, i know.

milly - if he volunteered once or twice a week somewhere I would commend him. I don't expect somebody to work when it would potentially cause them much mental distress. He gets pissed and stoned and revs his pitbike during the early hours in his garden most of the time - now how is that helping either himself, the community or society?

One more relevant thing - he told me that doctors have questioned whether his heavy use of marijuana and acid, plus previous addiction to coke have contributed to his mental health problems. He still smokes weed almost every day - intends to grow it 'again', actually - and will take anything else he can get his hands on.

technically this is her business as she pays tax. my dp has a number of relatives who seem fit and healthy but claim disability benefits. i dreaded going back to work after maternity leave - they suggested going sick. in this instance it does sound as if he's got problems

That's what we pay our taxes for, to help people who need it. OK, so maybe he's taken advantage of this but I personally think there's no point getting het up about the taxes I pay just because some people abuse the system. Life would be nicer if they didn't but have faith in teh fact that the taxes you are paying will be helping the people who need it most.

No, of course YANBU, if he is fit to work but CBA. I would feel insulted too.

A friend of mine gleefully told me that her new job is cash in hand. In the next breath she told me that her DS had broken a bone playing rugby. So who funds the doctor then? Taxpayers.

However, as has been pointed out, you don't know the full story. I believe in karma. I would keep schtum.

you know this reminds me of someone I know who is blind in one eye - they went for their ESA medical and got 0 points on the section where they look at limited vision.........apparently because he had perfect vision in the other eye .

(not sure why it reminds me of it but it does)

I'm pretty sure that there are a hell of a lot of people with bi-polar or other mental health problems out there who would happily return to the workplace and give up benefits in return for their health. Perhaps youur neighbour is one of them?

Whether he is or not, living next door to him and speaking to him does not make you privy to his innermost thoughts and fears so the knowledge you have of this man is not only none of your business but also probably just the tip of the iceberg.

Or should he bare his emotional soul to you, just to justify his place in society?

YABU.

Thisxgirl there is nothing spoilt about a man who chooses to leave his daughter an inheritence. There is everything spolied about a grown woman who happily sees her father leave a frugal life in order that he can foot the bill for his own inheritance tax out of savings.

FYI the government take a small percentage of the money he has worked hard for when he dies. Given the choice between paying tax when I am dead and paying increased rates of tax whilst i am alive then I certainly opt for the former. So I no I am not all miffed that when my parents die my sisters and I will in all likelihood have to sell their home in order to pay the tax bill.

I'd far rather it that way than have to pay double the tax I do now.

Hmm I love the way this has developed from polite thoughtful neigbour who would do anything for you to drug dealing anti social scumbag

dueling - I firmly believe in the benefit system, don't get me wrong. And I know plenty of people who abuse the system and wouldn't consider passing my opinion. I just felt like saying something because I thought it was quite ignorant of him to be pretty much bragging that he won't be working for the rest of his life when in the company of people who have paid A LOT of money in taxes and have contributed to him having the freedom to choose. Subtlety and a sense of respect wouldn't go amiss. I'm sitting here knowing (from his comments last night) that he is next door smoking the weed he spent all his benefit money on over the weekend and that next time I see him it'll be "can I have a can of beer/cigarette?" to DP and "can I drink this pint of milk?" to me. I find it all an insult.

I just would have hated it if DS was older and around last night when he was talking like that - I don't want DS to think it's acceptable or normative to abuse a system for your advantage without a thought for the collective future. Surely I'm not unreasonable for wanting a positive role model for my son? This becomes my business when it's at my dining room table, indirectly reflected in my pay slip and when I consider the influence people around us may have on our son. His mental illness doesn't make him a negative role model, BTW, but his attitude does. We have another friend with ME, also on full benefits, but he volunteers at the hospital once a week and would very much like to one day work again, although feels it may not be possible. This is a positive role model of somebody dealing with illness, I think.

His boasting etc may be a symptom of his MD. My ex SIL had MD and was convinced she would be safe to return to work (in the medical field)and talked about how great she was at her job even though she had been taken from work and sectioned. Additionally, if he is off his meds he may not have much control over his impulses so taking drugs might seem quite reasonable.
She was capable of going out, driving, shopping etc but would refuse to do any work she thought was beneath her both inside and outside the house. It was very frustrating but it was, in her case, part of the manifestation of her illness.

MH can directly affect someone's attitude - especially something like Bi-Polar where on a high or a low the "person" you are speaking to can be like 2 totally different people.

You say yourself you've since seen evidence of mania and depression; there's the problem. Even if he gets a job there's no way he can predict how long he'll be able to keep it before the disorder hits again leading to a) him losing the work, b) having to go through the rigmarole of re-signing/getting on invalidity benefit, c) the grief of going through it all again in public.

Does his lifestyle have any direct and negative impact on yours? If not it's really not your place, nor particularly healthy, to be in a state of high dudgeon about it, is it (although, in your defence, I see you're asking the question rather than actually mounting that high horse; no shame in putting gthe question out there)?

Why don't you tell him then, instead of leading him to believe that you a 'friend' and charitable neighbour.

Tbh, I would probably be similar if I had Bipolar (without a revving pitbike though). If I had an illness that meant I would have frequent periods of illness rendering me incapable of working- then I wouldn't put myself forward for any kind of employment that wold take away my safety net of 'benefits'. How could I cope with the endless, tedious chore of trying to sort out a benefit claim whilst so unwell, I believe myself to be the Queen of England ( or some other grandiose thought) etc.

nancy - he is polite and friendly whenever I see him, he is always willing to help me or DP in whatever way he can. For example, I ran out of oil while cooking and he ran back to his to get me some. People can grow drugs and be courteous, no? I never said he was a scumbag. I said he had a shady past and suggested he still did some questionable things. I am in conflict because he seems to have a good heart underneath but I morally disagree with him on a couple of things and this has greater relevance now I'm a mother.

I was 21 when my dad died unexpectedly and had no idea about him saving for inheritance tax. No idea whatsoever. How can you assume that, or have I got the wrong end of the stick? He never remarried and I was his only child and he wanted to make sure that I wasn't FORCED to sell the home he renovated over thirty years. It is a unique property (very old) and he put a lot of himself into it. It angers me that he saved that money with personal sacrifice and it is now not being used appropriately - although I appreciate many people are in that position and it's futile and my neighbour is not directly responsible.

I would hardly say 45% of what you own is a small percentage either, but that's a different debate. And you wouldn't have to pay increased taxes at all if the system operated properly, would you? There are so many people claiming benefits they aren't actually entitled to, either because they are working or aren't sick and so on. My point is: the money is taken from citizens and some of it is wasted or abused. Ideally, we would all pay lower taxes (in life and after death) and they would be allocated fairly. I wouldn't mind at all if I felt that all that money my dad saved was doing a wonderful job keeping people in homes who would otherwise be destitute because they simply cannot work or if it was saving people's lives in NHS hospitals. Of course the money is pooled and I have no way of knowing whom benefitted from it but hopefully you see my point - it's frustrating contributing so much to a system which in many ways does not work.

I totally agree with you.

I think your post is clear, calm and defined.

well done for writing what so many of us think (and what is true and happening in this country- annoyingly!)

If he is signed off sick then he SHOULDN't be looking foror accepting work.Your neighbour's condition has obviously had to be certified by his doctor or a specialist.Is it not a tiny bit arrogant to presume you know better ?

He is 'safe' on benefits though isnt he.

If he took the risk and went back to work he would eventually loose all his benefits and it would be pretty hard for him to get them back.

Incapcity benefit is getting tighter and tighter and DLA is being removed left right and centre.

If you have a MH the thought of taking the leap into the unknown is very very scarey. You loose your safety net.

I was terrified when my IB was stopped. I wanted to work but knew that full time work would tip me over the edge. I was very lucky to find a very part time job that just covered what I had lost.

If I had been forced into a stressful fulltime job I think I would be very ill now.

Maybe his boasting is a bit of bravado?
Maybe its a symptom of his illness?
Maybe he is a lazy scrounging git?

Whatever I think its pretty sad that his only apparent ambition is to stay on benefits for the rest of his life. I would HATE to feel like that.

"If he is signed off sick then he SHOULDN't be looking foror accepting work."

WRONG - if he's getting ESA he's allowed to do "permitted" work - up to a certain number of hours/amount.

Also part of the process of being on ESA (used to be incapcity benefit) is helping you find work again..........

bipolar is episodic, I would not be able to hold down a 'normal' job but fortunately am well enough between episodes to work for myself in a relatively stress-free occupation

I sometimes take meds but more often don't - it's not really a question of popping a simple pill once or twice a day, most people end up on quite complex combinations with horrific side effects and all for highly questionable benefits long term. Thinking is currently moving towards treating acute episodes rather than being on meds constantly, although most people experience a lot of 'residual symptoms' between actual bouts of mania/hypomania or depression.

I run a website for people who live with this condition, out of, say, twenty people there will be about seven working or studying part-time, one or two working full-time and the remainder expecting to be on benefits (or supported by family) for the rest of their lives. A couple of people were not able to hold down an hour or two a week in a charity shop without getting sacked.