To be offended by our neighbour’s attitude to benefits?

[thisxgirl]

I may be flamed for this but have been stewing all morning and need to get it off my chest and also test the waters to see if I?m just stuck-up/naïve/whatever.

DP befriended our neighbour over the summer, while I was pregnant. He has a shady past but is very polite and thoughtful, would do anything to help us and I haven?t really taken particular offence to anything he has said before.

He has been on sick benefits for a considerable amount of time. He has manic depression. Despite this, when I first met him, he was casually working with his brother-in-law labouring. He worked sporadically so sometimes full time and other times he would have a week off. I never saw any aspect of manic or depressive behaviour during this time so wasn?t entirely convinced he was actually ill (although I appreciate, from personal experience also, that mental illness isn?t always evident) and didn?t agree with him claiming benefits while earning cash on the side. You know, if he can work for cash, he can work and pay taxes, I thought. Similarly, if he can offer to help DP with building our decking and can get pissed every night and generally be up for doing fun things like riding his pitbike, he must be able to work? But I didn?t interfere because I know a lot of people do this and really, is it my business what lifestyle choice he makes whether I agree with it or not? I reasoned that a system which allows this is more to blame than an individual who is narrow-mindedly taking advantage of it.

The work with his brother-in-law dried up and since then he spends his days sitting on his arse in his flat, drinking, smoking and posting status updates on Facebook. Lately he seems to go through bouts of mania and depression ? i.e, he can be very hyperactive when around other people (shouting, screaming, running around, so enthusiastic about stuff he breaks it) and then goes for days not leaving his home ? it does seem worse since he stopped casually working. He admits himself that he is better when his mind and body are occupied and to some extent, this is true of everybody isn?t it? Although I appreciate that mental illness can be crippling but again, if you can find the energy and motivation for fun activities, you can find the energy for work.

Last night he was having a beer in our dining room with DP, talking about how he?s never going to work for the rest of his life because he can?t afford to (he?s better off on benefits) and he finds it too stressful. He said very matter-of-factly that he intends to be on full benefits for the rest of his life and has no other plans ? say he lives until 60 or 70, that?s 30 or 40 years. He was so unabashed ? he had no shame whatsoever that, despite being apparently able to work (having done so when the work was available), he planned to be a parasite on the system for the rest of his years. It didn?t occur to him that it isn?t fair for him to expect others to financially support his choice. It didn?t occur to him that the country is in incredible debt and the benefits system ? as a safety net for those who genuinely need it ? was being jeopardized by people like him.

From the perspective of a taxpayer, I was so insulted. When I was heavily pregnant, I worked six days a week and paid a proportionately large amount of tax, while he sunned himself in his garden. My dad bought this house for peanuts and worked on it so that when he died a few years ago, its value exceeded the inheritance tax cap and had he not been frugal in some areas of his life (one foreign holiday in 20 years, drove an eight year old Ford KA) and saved £60,000 in the knowledge that I would have to pay huge inheritance tax upon his death, I would have had to have sold this house to pay the tax owed upon death. My 73 year old stepfather is still working because after his state pension is taxed, he doesn?t have enough to pay his mortgage. It?s one thing for our neighbour to make his choice but to be so brazen when around other people who do pay taxes is rude, in my opinion.

AIBU? Should I have given him my opinion or would it create needless tension? Am I naïve to not want my DS to grow up with people like him as role model?

Awassailing -How do you know what his doctor has told him?

Whether or not you are being unreasonable could be debated here all day, but I do sometimes think people are too quick to play Devils Advocate on this board, and actually deep down, if a lot of us were in this situation, would feel aggrieved by it too.

I wholeheartedly agree with the OP, and would feel frustrated and annoyed by the boasts of this neighbour, who to me, has realised he can play the system to his advantage, from underneath the safety net of having bi-polar.

I was brought up with a very strong work ethic, the idea of getting up and going out to work every day being the norm for my family and I - I have 2 close friends who claim benefits, when in my own opinon, they should not, and it really does wind me up. It makes me think "am I the stupid one for getting up every morning, going in, struggling to make ends meet, going without?" and this is I believe what has contributed to the downfall of the counntry's ecomony.

So ok, I might sound a bit right-wing and Daily Mail-esque, but I'd rather be earning an honest wage than claiming what is not rightfully mine.

roadha- it can be seen clearly on the thread that many of us don't agree. I can see why OP is frustrated, but I don't agree with her and many others don't. To those with severe mental health problems, going into full time regular work isn't an option. What if the man in questions starts displaying the sort of behaviour the op mentions. No employer would keep him on, he is then left in the depths of an episode and without his safety net in benefits.

As I've stated before on this thread, if my mother was taken off benefits and forced into regular work, she would end up sectioned (this has happened before when the stress of trying to hold down a job caused a severe episode) having someone sectioned is very expensive for the taxpayer.

I would rather work and pay taxes than be trapped by mental illness into a life on benefits.

OP, have you considered that although he may be fit to work, he may not be fit to be employed (except by a family member)?

Employment (and the benefits system) assumes regularity, which your neighbour cannot offer. He may be well, he may not, on any given date, and he cannot say which he will be in advance. If he were to come off benefits, then need to go back on, the constant switching and waiting would probably leave him penniless and in a far worse state, financially and mentally.

His "planning" to stay on benefit may be a combination of acceptance of his situation and bravado. It makes him feel more in control if say thinks of it as his choice rather than what he has to settle for.

TBH, I wish the system were better suited to such people so that they weren't railroaded into having to make this kind of choice.

I think you should report him. Ring one of the helplines & then he will be investigated. Does he own the house ?
FWIW I had some depression issues - taking tablets & sitting around all day makes it worse, facing up to issues makes it go away.

I'd be furious if he lived next to me !

nothing to do with the doctor - it's ESA (incapacity) that decide that.

If he's claiming ESA then he IS allowed to do "permitted" work. as long as it fits the ESA criteria for permitted work.

I'm pleased that people have suggested his attitude may be part of his illness - I wondered this too - I GENUINELY wanted to know if I was being a bit unfair. No need for anybody to be rude or patronising because I have been open-minded throughout this.

I appreciate he is in a difficult position with regards to employment. His illness complicates finding and keeping a job and the benefit system doesn't work, as I have said, like so many other have said before me. Knowing that you can work 16 hours while still claiming is a very useful bit of information so thank you to the bearer of that - I will suggest it to him as it's a way for him to be active and occupied, whilst not losing the security of his benefits. I'll let you know what he says. I won't be so judemental as to presume he'll say, "I can't be arsed," ;)

lady - he hasn't said he feels unable to get off benefits, he has said he could but it's not worth it/too much of a ball-ache. I can only react to the comments he makes, instead of second-guessing how he really feels or where it stems from. And I wouldn't react at all if it wasn't expressed in my house. Maybe saying that he "doesn't want to" is symptomatic of his illness or maybe it's just easier not to. Who can blame him for that? I have tried to make it clear that I think it's the system that doesn't work rather than him being some evil sponging faker. I'd just rather not know. I do think it's sad and wonder why his father and brothers (whom he's very close to) don't encourage him into counselling, taking his meds, doing some volunteer work, stopping with the drugs and so on.

tiredemma - he's not really my friend, he's more DP's friend. We wouldn't see each other if it wasn't for DP. I would have said last night, "look, I find that quite offensive," but didn't want to pointlessly cause tension or disrupt DP's friendship. That's why I tested the water here.

"Does he own the house ?
FWIW I had some depression issues - taking tablets & sitting around all day makes it worse, facing up to issues makes it go away."

what does it matter if he owns the house - you are allowed to be on benefits and own your own home.

Depression is very different from bi-polar, and depression affects people differently.

When I had depression nearly 2yrs ago (my last episode of it) there was no way I would have managed to go out to work (I wasn't working I was on IS with 3 young children at home with me as a single parent).

Facing up to issues does not make bipolar disorder go away.

Many people have types of depression that are not the result of 'issues.'

I think it's up to 16hrs (ie 15 or less) - he's best to check with the job centre what the actual rules are as they're pretty complicated from what I can make out (H is on ESA - but as we're separating rather soon we're not really discussing the ins and outs of the requirements)

stressheaderic- i agree that it is deplorable for people to claim benefits they are not entitled too. However, in this case I don't at all get the impression that the man in question is 'playing the system.' The behaviours that the OP has described, I can't imagine many employers that will put up with this in their workplace. It needs to be possible for someone with illness of an episodic nature to work when they can, and be able to take time off when they need to. As far as I am aware, this is not possible for many people with mental health issues. It's not a simple matter of having a 'strong work ethic' when mental health issues such as these are present. You wouldn't say someone didn't have a strong work ethic if they couldn't work because of a disability would you?

I can see that the 'boasting' must be frustrating, however, this does not automatically mean that the man is not entitled to benefits, or that he is playing the system.

Thisxgirl, while I don't agree with your perspective, I do think you have explained your opinions in a non-inflammatory way on this thread, which is hard to do on such a contentious topic.

oh blimey - MillyR - can't believe I missed that commment - well spotted.

You're right many many people have depression with no "obvious" reasons - it just happens (and of course bi-polar is in a league of it's own from depression)

feelingforty - his flat is rented and paid for by housing benefits. I do agree that his illness is not helped by the wallowing he does and the drugs, late nights and not taking his meds. Like I said, I understand mental illness can be crippling but it is frustrating when somebody is self-destructive and expresses the intention to never try and help themselves manage it more successfully. This is something his family should really step in and help with. Again, may be part and parcel of the illness too but I don't think I am so bad for feeling slightly disappointed and offended that he has resigned himself to this at my expense in a roundabout way. I have other friends with mental illness - just as serious as MD - and although sometimes apathetic, they do sometimes try to work on managing their illness and offer what they can, say one volunteer shift a week at the hospital.

Why be so judgey??

He helps/helped you - you feel ok with him coming into yours -drinking beer and divulging all his finances which you then post on the 'tinternet....

He is signed off work for a reason,mental illness is far worse than a physical illness you can see we only need to look at your opinion,yet if he was brain damaged or an amputee you wouldnt say these things.

Working with his BIL and working for a company are entirely different things his BIL understands his illness and supports his needs a big company would not - heavens forbid he work alongside you and your 'snotty' attitude towards him.

If you dont trust his morales then fgs dont get involved with him someone with mental health issues doesnt need someone like you.

Feelingforty - would you report him if he had cancer instead of bipolar disorder?

30 years ago, instead of managing his condition at home (and on benefits) he'd have been locked up in a mental hospital, probably for a very, very long time.

I can't believe how fecking pig ignorant some people are about a serious mental illness.

I was just thinking that

even 10 years ago more of us would have been in hospital for longer parts of each year than now, with the advent of home treatment (and serious budget cuts and ward closures)

and oddly enough, employers are not queuing to offer flexible work to people with a serious psychiatric history - especially a condition like ours that so often goes hand in hand with substance abuse and some truly shocking behaviour

thisxgirl- yes I certainly think that alot of the negative way he is coming across i.e the 'boasting' is down to his illness. I know a few people with this illness and in my experience they sometimes don't think much about the effect what they say has on others, it doesn't occur to them too. It's an illness which can cause people to become very insular and even self centered, as the illness can sometimes cause them to only be thinking of themself and their own problems. Particularly when someone is in the midst of a episode which causes them to have a 'grandiose' view of themselves, sufferers can come across as particualrly boastful and arrogant. It is a manifestation of the illness though.

yanbu of course, lazy selfish sod

am responding only to op

I can't understand why people are being so bitchy to thisxgirl. She merely asked a perfectly reasonable question and there is no need for some of you to go on the attack.

There are people who abuse the system. This neighbour does not remotely resemble someone with a serious mental illness such as bi polar disorder, and I know a couple of people very well who have this so am not unfamiliar with it.

IMO he sounds more like a chancer to me who is abusing the system like countless others out there, and op is right, these people jeopardize the system that is meant to help the ones who genuinely need it.

Another difficulty for people like your neighbour is that they are often 'dual diagnosis'; they have both a mental health problem and a substance misuse problem.

Neither the Drug service or the Mental Health service provider want to take on responsibility for the client as they both say it is not their area of expertise. A lot of people fall through the gaps of treatment that way. There really needs to be a specialist service set up for dual diagnosis clients.

thisxgirl- the wallowing, the drugs, the not taking meds, all part of the illness in all liklyhood. I'm not sure what his family can do to help, sorry to go back to me again but my mother has suffered with sever bi-polar for the past forty years. Whilst the family have been as supportive as possible, we can't step in and make it go away. The best anyone can do for her is offer the support and assitance for her to live a stress free life to prevent episodes. Episodes in her case lead to dangerous behaviour, police involvemnet and a sectioning order, and eventually cost the taxpayer more.

Yes it's not fair, all the rest of us have to deal with stress and get on with it, and pay our taxes. I'm proud to live in a society where we make sure ill/disabled people are supported. of course we have to be sure that people aren't working the system, in your neighbours case, I wouldn't automatically think he is. He may be insensitve, boastful and irratating, but by the sounds of it he also suffers from a severe and debilitating illness.

Nikita09- I disagree, I also know quite a few people with severe forms of this particular illness very well (including my mother!) To me it sounds perfectly possible that he is bi-polar from the behaviour the OP describes. She doesn't describe any particulalry extreme behaviour, but alot of the traits are there I feel. In additon, whilst on long term benefits you have to regualrly see your doctor, I'm pretty sure the doctor could tell if he was just playing the system.

He might be a bit happier if he had a more purposeful life involving work, responsibility, self discipline, ambition and more social productivity and selflessness.

peacocks, all of the things you describe are not always possible when suffering mental illness. Someone suffering bi-polar can't just decide to be more 'responsible' and 'selfless' and then they're better!