To be offended by our neighbour’s attitude to benefits?

[thisxgirl]

I may be flamed for this but have been stewing all morning and need to get it off my chest and also test the waters to see if I?m just stuck-up/naïve/whatever.

DP befriended our neighbour over the summer, while I was pregnant. He has a shady past but is very polite and thoughtful, would do anything to help us and I haven?t really taken particular offence to anything he has said before.

He has been on sick benefits for a considerable amount of time. He has manic depression. Despite this, when I first met him, he was casually working with his brother-in-law labouring. He worked sporadically so sometimes full time and other times he would have a week off. I never saw any aspect of manic or depressive behaviour during this time so wasn?t entirely convinced he was actually ill (although I appreciate, from personal experience also, that mental illness isn?t always evident) and didn?t agree with him claiming benefits while earning cash on the side. You know, if he can work for cash, he can work and pay taxes, I thought. Similarly, if he can offer to help DP with building our decking and can get pissed every night and generally be up for doing fun things like riding his pitbike, he must be able to work? But I didn?t interfere because I know a lot of people do this and really, is it my business what lifestyle choice he makes whether I agree with it or not? I reasoned that a system which allows this is more to blame than an individual who is narrow-mindedly taking advantage of it.

The work with his brother-in-law dried up and since then he spends his days sitting on his arse in his flat, drinking, smoking and posting status updates on Facebook. Lately he seems to go through bouts of mania and depression ? i.e, he can be very hyperactive when around other people (shouting, screaming, running around, so enthusiastic about stuff he breaks it) and then goes for days not leaving his home ? it does seem worse since he stopped casually working. He admits himself that he is better when his mind and body are occupied and to some extent, this is true of everybody isn?t it? Although I appreciate that mental illness can be crippling but again, if you can find the energy and motivation for fun activities, you can find the energy for work.

Last night he was having a beer in our dining room with DP, talking about how he?s never going to work for the rest of his life because he can?t afford to (he?s better off on benefits) and he finds it too stressful. He said very matter-of-factly that he intends to be on full benefits for the rest of his life and has no other plans ? say he lives until 60 or 70, that?s 30 or 40 years. He was so unabashed ? he had no shame whatsoever that, despite being apparently able to work (having done so when the work was available), he planned to be a parasite on the system for the rest of his years. It didn?t occur to him that it isn?t fair for him to expect others to financially support his choice. It didn?t occur to him that the country is in incredible debt and the benefits system ? as a safety net for those who genuinely need it ? was being jeopardized by people like him.

From the perspective of a taxpayer, I was so insulted. When I was heavily pregnant, I worked six days a week and paid a proportionately large amount of tax, while he sunned himself in his garden. My dad bought this house for peanuts and worked on it so that when he died a few years ago, its value exceeded the inheritance tax cap and had he not been frugal in some areas of his life (one foreign holiday in 20 years, drove an eight year old Ford KA) and saved £60,000 in the knowledge that I would have to pay huge inheritance tax upon his death, I would have had to have sold this house to pay the tax owed upon death. My 73 year old stepfather is still working because after his state pension is taxed, he doesn?t have enough to pay his mortgage. It?s one thing for our neighbour to make his choice but to be so brazen when around other people who do pay taxes is rude, in my opinion.

AIBU? Should I have given him my opinion or would it create needless tension? Am I naïve to not want my DS to grow up with people like him as role model?

I have met hundreds of people with this condition, through setting up MDF self help groups, obviously time spent in hospital and via the peer support site I run. From the info given it sounds more than plausible that the neighbour has bipolar/manic depression even if it is a 'softer' spectrum type variant it would still impair his life.

It's so difficult to explain how it can affect a person day by day, apart from the major episodes which are pretty unmissable, I don't think anyone would choose it although if you have to have a major mental illness this is probably the most treatable.

YANBU - I have had a similar experience - my neighbour happily telling me how it's not worth his while coming off benefits because he'd need to earn £X per week before it would exceed what he gets in benefit, rent paid, council tax rebate, free school meals etc etc. I found it very difficult to bite my tongue as I work and so does DH who, in the construction industry, more often than not has to work 7 days a week. Makes you wonder who has got it right, us slogging our guts out or the neighbours who do no work - not even voluntary work - and yet seem to have no less a standard of living than we do.

Thisxgirl sounds like he does not want to help himself and just to let other people look after him hence the taxpayer. Having bi polar does not mean disengage with society and to not do anything, seems like this chap knows what he is doing it does make me mad too. He should at least seek help and mabey do voluntary work once or twice a week. I dont blame you really. Have you sugested to him that he should get help and to try voluntary work. Bi polar should not mean the end and the person is resigned to sitting at home for the rest of their lives, benefits aside how sad that is, especially if the person is young that means another 40+ years at home not doing anything

Bipolar disorder is a debilitating disease, and there is no known cure. There are a vast spectrum of behaviours; there is no single, effective, side-effect-free treatment; and the impact it has on the sufferer and the people around them can be staggering and destructive in myriad ways.

And yet I've never read so many judgemental and proscriptive emails about a man we essentially know nothing about! "He should do this ...", "He could do that ...", "He shouldn't be ..."

pigletmania - actually, bipolar disorder often does mean disengaging with society and not doing anything (especially during a depressive episode, when it can take every ounce of strength simply getting through the day without killing yourself).

thisxgirl - I can understand your frustration, but I don't think you know nearly enough to be making the assumptions that you are. I would happily take on your share of your contribution towards this man if it would bring you more peace of mind.

If I had to make a choice between risking the fact that my tax money was being wasted, and choosing to have bipolar disorder, I know which one I'd opt for.

I too think his behaviour squares very well with what I have seen of bipolar. It may seem deplorable from the point of view of a healthy person- that's precisely why it's regarded as a mental health issue.

Besides, even if you can prove that he has a bad attitude, that doesn't mean the disorder would go away if he didn't or that any employer would employ him or that he would be capable of doing work.

Yes I do understand that but really those around them should help them seek help not just accept the situation as they can be helped with the right resources. Often they might have a SW or a mental health nurse if not they could be assigned to one. BP does not have to mean the end, my SIL who has it (quite severe)she has days when she is manic and days where she is just really down, did manage to work and did open her own boutique but had to give up because of other phsyical health reasons, and now is confined to a wheelchaire and gets ever so tired and has made it worse really.

YABU I have bipolar and can say that it is a very real debilitating disease. In my case it was not diagnosed until pregnancy, although I have had it since adolescence, when stress at work triggered a severe manic episode.

I rapid cycle and go into manic episodes every few weeks (without meds). Anything can trigger it; usually just one night of poor sleep, excitement, stress, seasons or as I find every Christmas!

I am gutted that I have spent the last 16 years of my life undiagnosed, always living on a knife edge, never being able to plan for holidays, visits to friends or sleep overs (b/c the stress or lack of sleep might set me off for weeks on end). It has affected my relationship with family who would do things and take holidays without me. I have a reputation as a flaky friend as I have let people down at short notice when I have had to cancel plans because I am ill.
Finally at work my reliability is often called into question because I sometimes need more than 6 days off sick a year.

I never thought that I would be able to be in a relationship with anyone or have children because how could I hold down a job and be a good mother.

After pregnancy I slipped into a deep pnd / bipolar depression and was unable to do ANYTHING. I could not eat (honestly I lost a stone in a week and was b/f) take a shower, care for myself or my baby and was admitted into a mabu (mother and baby unit). I was put on the correct meds and slowly began to feel better, care for my baby and myself. It still took me five weeks to feel well enough to put make up on however; even that felt like a mountain to climb.

In the MABU there were more bipolar mums who were much worse than me, some with pupueral psychosis. Yet, for the most part the women in there appeared nice, if unconfident, 'normal' people. It was only now and then you would get flashes of what else they were going through.

In addition people with any kind of serious, lifelong mental illness encounter a lot of stigma. They are slated for having benefits because if you can't see why someone's ill it doesn't exist, right?

Yet in addition they face a lot of stigma if they are gainfully employed. They may be ostracised at work for being 'a little bit crazy', if they need to take time off because they are sick (and they are, even if you cannot see it) colleagues bitch behind their backs that they are 'taking the piss' and 'they wish they could have a mental illness too').

FYI I have never claimed sick benefits and will (have to) return to work. My colleagues are not aware of my condition (although I had to reluctantly tell my boss)

I have a very stressful job and am very scared that what may count as 'normal' stress for others such as running a household, being a mum and f/t work may trigger another episode. For the first time in my life I have been symptom free for a few months, but md is like a monster at your door, you never know when it will reoccur.

Perhaps I should go for a less stressful job, however in most jobs (maybe all) you have to disclose health problems. This does not bode well for any future employment prospects!

ATM I can function well I do not need any state help. However if I was ever to become so ill that I lost my job and could not get another one, and was unable to support myself or my family I would feel entitled to claim. That is what the welfare state is for, to help those who cannot help themselves.

Many people in their lives will suffer a mental illness. Thankfully most people do not suffer a lifelong illness that impacts on their daily life.
To all those who would wish to judge, just be grateful that it hasn't happened to you. Yet.

If anyone else is suffering. I feel for you. Take care, it can and does get better x

whereyouleftit - very good points, thank you.

that was a really moving post fluffy - I know what you mean about 'normal' stress and other people's expectations, it really doesn't take much to trigger me

piglet - I think you are being a bit idealistic if you imagine there are all these 'resources' available now, or if a once or twice weekly visit from a cpn or sw is going to help much

whatnolunchbreak - thank you for such a frank and personal description of living with bipolar. It's an interesting insight to my neighbour. I'm sorry you have suffered for so many years and think you are remarkably strong to consider going back to such a stressful job - I appreciate you have slim options otherwise though. The benefits system and employment spectrum do not work in the favour of those with mental illness.

Not once have I suggested that I envy my neighbour for his position - he isn't a content man with a covetous life. Nor that I think it's his fault for being ill and despondent in his condition. I suffered with depression from 14 until 21, then had another bout a couple of years later. I've been medicated, counselled, hospitalised. So I'm not completely ignorant of mental illness, although thankfully things have felt more manageable lately. Maybe I've deluded myself that I've been complicit in my own 'recovery' - whether transient or not - and so feel frustrated when my neighbour seemingly won't try to help himself? Next time I see him I'm definitely going to suggest he volunteer perhaps once a week. I think the structure and sense of helping out would be good for him - he is essentially kind-hearted and giving. I think it's important for your sense of self to feel like a member of, and contributor to, the community and society as a whole - even the smallest engagement and contribution counts if possible.

I'm sorry, that last post was meant for fluffyguineapigs -
I have a baby on my knee!

MillyR - thank you. I was willing to be told I was being unreasonable. I just had an emotional reaction to his comments and wanted to work them out and hear other people's perspectives.

oh absolutely re stress- H doesn't have bi-polar - but he had a duel diagnosis of adjustment disorder leading to depression and in addition pyschosis (caused by substance misuse - that was tied into the depression).

Some people can't understand how he can go to the gym, even looking at doing some casual "bouncer" work, but not be able to cope with the stress of an interview for a job. Actually it was one failed job interview which catapulted us both into the worst moment either of us have ever experienced as his depression hit an all time low and he was unable to maintain "control" over his hallucinations (the latter no-one but himself was aware of until the incident).

He's considering the bouncer work because he's allowed (and indeed encouraged) to try and do Some work - and he won't have to do an interview for it - a friend of his runs a "security" company and has said he'll give him some work on a casual basis if he sorts the appropriate licence out. He won't HAVE to go to work, if he's feeling low and unable to "face the world" he'll jsut be able to ring up and say he can't do it that night.

With a "proper" job - even if he managed to survive the stress of the interview, and even if he got the job, the prospect of having to go to a new place with new people and HAVE to be at work would be too much for him.

This is a man that 4yrs ago refused to claim benefits that we were entitled to when we were on our knees financially or to tell the Tax Credits that actually our income had dropped substantially (so should have been getting a lot more money from them), was too proud to do so. He was confident and would go anywhere and speak to anyone. He got a field sales job which he was very, very good at........

And now, well now I'm sure people look at him and think he's just being a lazy bum.

Just to widen the lens a little and see this from the perspective of a mother, would you be concerned about having a physically very strong man (due to a history of steroid use) at your house regularly who is polite and helpful, but does drink and take drugs and behaves maniacally whilst doing so because of his illness and perhaps interaction between his meds and the drugs/alcohol? Somebody who refused to modify their habits despite this? BTW, he does NOT take drugs here but has been here still stoned from his own house and it only seems to exacerbates his episodes. Somebody who has a history of robbery for which he went to prison some years ago, and assaulted his ex-partner resulting in loss of contact with his two year old? I haven't heard about him being violent since I have known him so do you employ forgiveness here and trust he is calmer these days? He has once or twice been borderline cruel to our dog and we have warned him about this - he made a makeshift muzzle while we were not with them and afterwards our dog was noticeably aggressive towards us.

YABU I did extra cleaning on the side when on benefits because I couldn't live on what I was getting. I was paid every two weeks, by the end of the second week there was no food, nappies, or bus fare. And no I didn't smoke. I've never understood why people on benefits and their children are expected to visibly suffer. Until you've lived it you don't have a clue. That extra 20 or 30 was the difference between just getting by and a complete nervous breakdown

Mmm he sounds a bit of a tosser though still

I would employ trust on what YOU know of him now, not of what may have happened in his past.

Tx Mitchyinge - tis no fun at times is it?

thisxgirl - I am glad that my post has given you an insight into md, and I am so sorry to hear that you have suffered from depression too in the past.

Re suggesting volunteering for your neighbour - it is a good idea, many people who are unable to work do find a sense of routine and community by volunteering; however as your neighbour seems a little unstable at the moment, do not be suprised if he may not be in an appropriate 'place' to do this right now. He may be perfectly ok of course but he seems as if he is not at the 'higher functioning' md scale [I'm not sure what benefits he is receiving, but if it is DLA, the criteria is pretty high for mental illness.]
Plus, you mention that he is not reliable about taking medication, so that may be another marker that he is not all that well at this time.

pps to anyone why on earth are prescriptions charged for severe, long-term mental illness??? Surely you want to encourage people to take meds when many people with this type of illness do not take meds when feeling better etc. Surely it makes better financial sense for the state to prevent lost time at work, hospitalisation etc? Anyhow I digress...

bbs bathtime and nursery rhyme time!

he may be suffering from chronic bipolar disorder and go through periods of improvement and then relapse occasionally. It does happen.

YABVU - sorry but you are. Do you honestly know the ins and outs of his mental health history??

You either have it or you don't. Diagnoses for any mental illnesses are not just dished out willy nilly

Bollocks - you're not being at all unreasonable. He sounds like a work shy git using an illness he may or may not have as an excuse. I hate people like that.

coolma I seriously hope you don't get any mental illness in your life time then - what a really judgemental attitude.

I do agree with coolma totally after reading more of thisxgirl, some people just use mental health illness as an excuse really. I have had my fair share from depression before dd was born to PND, with meds feel more positive especailly now she is not a baby and crying from 9am-9pm

fluffy - thankyou for your post. i hope it will make me more understanding in future. i wish you well

My DF was diagnosed with BP a couple of months ago after nearly 10 years of being in and out of hospital, having seen several mental health professionals and having tried any number of antidepressants. He was also made redundant from an incredibly unsympathetic workplace a few months ago, and will now find it very hard to get another job, especially in these competitive times. Mental illness sucks, as people often can't "see" the problem. Even his family can be judgemental and thoughtless.
YABU - don't judge on superficial evidence.

aibu to be pleased to be making more bipolar friends on mn?