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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think that dog walkers should keep their dogs on a lead.

157 replies

orangetree · 09/01/2010 15:09

Don't get me wrong. I love dogs. But I live on a farm, a footpath runs past the back of the house. Since November, 4 of my chickens have been killed or maimed by people who think that they can let their dogs run free simply because they are walking in the countryside. Again this afternoon a lady knocked on the door saying oops sorry but she thought the hen was only stunned. It will probably die. GRRRR

OP posts:
SoupDragon · 09/01/2010 16:26

I let my dog offlead in the local woods but I am aware he will not come back when called and will jump up excitedly if there are people/dogs/whatever as a distraction so I am constantly alert and 95% of the time get him back on the lead before he notices anyone.

When I walk him outside school hours, he is on the extending lead because of the increased likelihood of their being children about.

violethill · 09/01/2010 16:26

lissielou - I still think you are fudging the issue.

Maintaining your own property to safeguard your own livestock/property is one issue.

Other people allowing their dogs to enter your property is an entirely separate issue.

When our first child got to toddling age, we put up more secure fencing around our garden as it was our responsibility to stop her getting out. However, at no point did that change the responsibility of anyone else to keep their dogs out. If a dog had got in prior to our new fence, when we had mostly hedge, that would still have been the owner's fault.

hatwoman · 09/01/2010 16:28

onagar

"We acclimatise dogs to people and teach them not to bite them"

it goes much deeper than that. they are not just taught not to bite - they are not just "tamed" - they are domesticated - they have evolved/been bred not to bite over thousands of years. (scientists think probably about 10-12 thousand years). dogs aren't tamed wolves.

there was a good Horizon program on just the other night about this. in Russia a breeding epxeriment showed how selectively bred silver foxes become non-aggressive and affectionate in just a few generations. they were kept in cages with little human contact - but by selective breeding their aggression was eliminated.

the flipside is that an attempt to bring up wolves as pet dogs failed. despite being brought up by humans, in a home, treated like puppies, by 4 months they were aggressive and non-communicative.

dogs are not wolves.

pagwatch · 09/01/2010 16:28

YANBU to expect dg owners to keep their dogs under control.
YABU to make the sweping conclusion that all dogs should be on a lead all the time.

YAalsoNBU to be annoyed.
but YABU to complain about it rather than do something about it.

If I found a dog in my garden I would be poked off but I would also have making my fence secure the next thing on my to do list.If I found dogs in my garden on four seperate occasions I am not sure why I would wait.

That has nothing to do with attributing blame and everything to do with being sensible.

I am entitled to leave my front door open all night without fear of being burgled. But i am a bit silly if I do that and then just complain about it.

OracleInaCoracle · 09/01/2010 16:29

um, i said that it was the dog owners responsibility to keep dogs uinder control and property owners responsibility to ensure it was secure. how is that fudging the issue?

BitOfFun · 09/01/2010 16:31

I'm interested in this sign. How far away from your property is it? If it's 200 yards away and warns owners in good time that there are chickens around and please leash their dogs, then there's time for it to be useful.

Otherwise, I reckon my terrier would get to the sign before I did, and she can't read.

violethill · 09/01/2010 16:33

lissielou - because the level of 'security' is up to the householder to determine for their needs. Like in the example I gave you. Before we had kids, our garden was mainly hedged, because that provided enough privacy for DH and me. We didn't need a fence to stop us escaping! Once we had a toddler - our responsibility - we needed to fence the garden securely. Our needs had changed.

The dog is the owner's responsibility - no one elses.

Apart from anything else, different dogs would need different levels of security to keep them out. Some dogs wouldn't scale a 4 foot fence, others could. Some dogs like digging and would go under a fence.

bronze · 09/01/2010 16:34

If one of my chickens went into my neighbours garden and their dog got it it would be my responsibility. If their dog got into my garden and attacked my chickens then it s their responsibility. I would actually have the right to shoot the dog (though I wouldnt)

kinnies · 09/01/2010 16:38

vallhala Not a lot I can do about it tbh.
He does like to go for a swim, so goes sans lead for that. We have an extendable lead to let him have a bit of a wander as well.
my dog thread

UndomesticHousewife · 09/01/2010 16:40

The fencing around the chickens and your property can't be very good if dogs can get in. Adn if dogs can get in then so can foxes which will kill the chickens too.

BitOfFun · 09/01/2010 16:48

I agree that technically the dog owner is responsible legally- but do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy? Because practically speaking, a decent fence is the obvious solution here.

violethill · 09/01/2010 16:49

We've already covered that Undomestic.

Property owner's responsibility to safeguard to the level they need.

Dog owner's responsibility to keep their animal out.

OracleInaCoracle · 09/01/2010 16:53

violethill, if dogs and other animals are getting easily into the area then it is not secure enough for the owners needs.

violethill · 09/01/2010 16:59

You don't know what the owner's needs are though do you lissielou? My need, prior to children, was to have a pleasant garden to sit in. We didn't have a dog that needed keeping in. Or children. When that changed, we built a fence.

Other people' dogs are their issue, not mine. That's what the OP is saying.

MrsPolarBear · 09/01/2010 17:01

If dogs were getting into my garden, I would fix the fence not put up a sign.

OracleInaCoracle · 09/01/2010 17:01

i thought her needs were to keep her chickens safe!

am NOT saying that the dog owners are in the right, im saying that there is equal blame.

midori1999 · 09/01/2010 17:03

Its' really pretty irelevant what people's opinions on this are (although, of course, they are entitled to them) seeing as int he eyes of the law the dog owner is legally liable for keeping her dog under control, which includes not worrying livestock/chickens.

UndomesticHousewife · 09/01/2010 17:04

Owners let their dogs out on their own, presumably so they don't have to bother walking it, so the fencing has to be better to keep them out.
And foxes will try to get in too.
Agree with BitofFun, it's all very well to be angry,and I woudl be too in your position, but at the end of the day do whatever you have to to keep them out.

MrsPolarBear · 09/01/2010 17:04

I don't think "equal blame" is true though. The dog owners are to blame but I would take steps to protect my property if I were the OP.

violethill · 09/01/2010 17:05

Well I agree lissielou that I am slightly surprised that the OP has so many problems with dogs, because I entirely agree that as a keeper of livestock, I would assume she has a reasonably secure fence.

The point I was making was really about the owners needs. If I kept chickens, I'd want really secure fencing. As I don't, and in fact don't have any pets which I need to prevent escaping, then I don't need such a secure fence.

My issue is really with those posters who seem to think it's everyone else's responsibility to build high enough/deep enough/strong enough barriers to keep out other people's animals. There's a very clear answer here - that responsibility lies squarely with the dog owner.

ShinyAndNew · 09/01/2010 17:06

What Pagwatch said.

Of course it is the dog owners responsibility to keep their dogs under control. My dog has zero recall skills. We are working on this in our gated back alley, with rope tied to his collar just incase he does happen across anyone. He is very jumpy. We also have a trainer coming when/if the ice ever melts to help us with this. In the meantime he is kept on his leash, because it is my responsibility to ensure he is under control. and without his lead he would not be under control.

However it is your responsibility to ensure that your chickens are safe and secure. What about foxes? Cats? Surely if dogs can get in they can.

As others have said, instead of whining about other people, why not take action yourself?

Original poster
orangetree · 09/01/2010 17:06

Can I repeat that I live on a farm. My needs are simply that peoples dogs are kept off my property, except on the footpath which is atleast 10 feet wide!!!The sign to ask people to put dogs on a lead is 150 yards away from the chickens in either direction. I truly believe that these dog owners simply don't give a damn.

The field the hens are in has horse fencing around it ( no horses though sadly!) but is about half an acre in size. This allows my chickens to be truly free range. I will sadly now have to keep them in (fencing all that to keep dogs out will cost a fortune). I'm not stupid, I know what the answer is, It just makes my blood boil to see how thoughtless some people are. THAT is the point

OP posts:
Original poster
orangetree · 09/01/2010 17:12

AND just for the record. I have no trouble with foxes because I shut the hens in every night, which is the responsible thing for poultry keepers to do. And we have 11 feral cats on the farm. Believe me, they are large cats, they would have killed the chickens before if they could.

OP posts:
LuckySalem · 09/01/2010 17:13

I personally, would be double checking the fencing and then taking names of anyone who owned a dog that came in my garden.

There is a house that forwards onto a field where EVERYONE takes the dogs to run around. There is NO fence around it, I call my dog back from going in that gaden but if she went in I think the houseowner hasn't got a leg to stand on to shout at me as as far as the dog is concerned it's just the field.
HOWEVER, if she has a fence and my dog goes in, then its my fault.

Does that make sense?

ocdgirl · 09/01/2010 17:13

Of course it's the dog owners responsability to keep thier dog under control, i've got 2 dogs one is a collie cross breed and she is as good as gold and totally under control off her lead and wouldn't harm a chicken if she got near one (which i wouldn't allow), the other is a ckcs and is a little sod, no way would i allow her off her lead in public !! she is a rescue dog and hasn't been very well trained and would almost certainly chase after chickens given chance so i have a retractable lead for her and i reign her in when needed, i do agree that it is instinct in some breeds as my previous ckcs was almost as bad out in public so she was kept on a lead too !!