to be upset by this?

[mrsbean78]

I suspect that this may be my last thread on mumsnet, as I think I am going up against a regular.

I posted this thread today:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/breast_and_bottle_feeding/877382-Slow-to-gain-wt-baby-panicky-mi dwife?msgid=17836631

I cannot believe that someone would interpret my panic as a reason to suggest, in order, that my 12 day old first born might have a metabolic disorder or have something so serious wrong with them that it might affect their survival.

When I said I wanted to know what the concerns would be, I meant from MY health professionals. I appreciate this might not have been clear.

I appreciate my second post might have been misread but I am very upset and worried about my baby and I really think that the use of sceptical faces was really unwarranted.

As it is, my baby did not gain weight today.. although the midwife was not concerned and will just review it.

Now I have to worry at the back of my mind that my baby might have something that makes him 'just survive' instead of grow..

And people saying I just wanted a pat on the head.. that is so lacking in compassion! I am in floods of tears as I write this..sbsolute floods of tears.. but I guess the important thing here is that I was 'rude' or not considered in my response to someone else (which I actually tried to be, though I was angry..).

I am so, so, so upset and worried. I wish to God I had never posted..

Can I ask a question? Is it not commonly told to new mums here that BF babies will lose a bit of weight in the first two weeks and not to worry about it? I had DS in Oz and I don't think he was even weighed until about 2 or 3 weeks after I left hospital.

MrsB - It was recognised because I said it was not OK for me to live like this and because I had a toddler who was suffering.
I understand the wanting to be strong. I honestly felt for a long time that it was in mt head and that I could control it, but then just as I was feeling all strong and positive something quite innocuous would happen and I would be floored and a crying wreck - I just didn't seem able to pull myself together.

What Stayingsantasgirl is saying is very interesting to me - I was tested for an underactive thyroid (I lost a lot of weight too) and it really felt very physical. I would be very anxious and also very angry if I didn't eat properly - so please do make sure you eat regularly. My house would be full of snacks so I could grab something quickly and it did help.

Morloth - its pretty normal to lose up to 10% of birth weight and most midwifes accept that ime - but any more than that and the midwifes get concerned. I think 15% is when they get really worried.

I do think it depends on the midwife as to how concerned they get.

DS2 lost weight but he'd been in nicu for a week so they were generally keeping a close eye on him and I had to get him weighed a lot.

I got very angry with MN a long time ago, disappeared for a bit and came back with a new name and a new outlook. I do use MN as an outlet when I need to rant and for information but I understand that people here are not professionals and if they upset me I can just close the page or not be bothered by it, really. You will get a mix of opinions and ideas on MN so it's important not to take it too seriously.

Sorry you are so upset. I hope your baby is doing well. I remember having a horrendous time with my DS when he was newborn and I had PND. Strangely it's all a haze now. I know it was a bad time but I can't remember any details of it. Sometimes hormones blow things up to be huge when they're not.

Morloth - yes they do - up to 10% of body weight - but they then keep a close eye on you and expect your baby to start gaining from there

Thanks traceybath I see it all the time on here is all and I was wondering whether the midwives at the hospital even mention it.

DS was 8pounds 5 ounces and really chubby when he was born, about 3 weeks later he was quite a skinny little thing (still is), but was bright eyed and bushy tailed with wet nappies etc (also breastfed babies don't always poo very often do they? DS often went a week or so between them and I was assured this was fine).

I think some very simple words made my life so much easier it they don't seem to be said as much here. Thank goodness this baby isn't my first! I would be freaking out right about now with some of the stuff I have been told by midwives here.

It is interesting how the advice can vary so massively between countries.

morloth, good practice is to check the baby has stopped losing weight by about day 5, but many babies don't get weighed for many days after birth, so it's not always poss. to see when the weight loss stopped.

10 per cent is the outside of normal weight loss and happens in the first days.

Many healthy babies may lose a bit more than this and any issues are just resolved as bf gets underway, but for some, this amount of weight loss is the first sign of things not being ok, so it should be seen as a spur to check milk transfer and frequency is ok.

No poos is not a good sign in a newborn - again, it's a spur to check milk transfer is ok. If is is, no problem.

So different. Even the kid book I use (an Australian one) says that not pooing in a fully breastfed baby is perfectly fine, so midwives, OB, GP and a book all in agreement.

Not saying either way is right BTW, just that the approaches are quite different and I wonder why.

I look back to ds' early days and I cannot believe how totally INSANE I was. Mad. Bonkers. Ridiculous. Crazy woman. I thought ds was going to die because I could not feed him. Literally thought he would die.

So I think poor old MrsBean is deserving of all the slack that has been cut her.

And all admiration for Tiktok for being so understanding and magnanimous. I don't give a rats arse for all this MN royalty stuff, but I have always admired your calm and rational, and very informative advice and support.

Veils will be drawn....etc.

Morloth - I had DC1 in Australia and DC2 in the UK and I agree that the attitudes are different.
There seemed to be a confidence in breastfeeding and an acceptance that all babies are different and that unless there was an obvious problem all was probably fine.DC1 was born on 50th centile and just kept dropping, settling in the end on the 9th and at no point were people worried because they could see he was healthy.
Much more stressful here with people being obsessed with charts, but then I guess the Aussies are just more chilled aren't they?!

I was thinking that MrsSnoops, I think we are generally more relaxed so no reason why it wouldn't apply to pregnancy/breastfeeding/babies/children etc.

Has been quite an adventure being pregnant here I must say. Still not too worry!

Ah - you're Australian. I'm English, still think the Aussies do it better though. I had a natural birth with DC1 in a public hospital and was in for 3 nights. Anytime I needed help with feeding i pressed my buzzer and a midwife came and helped me latch on. The midwives even introduced themselves at the begining of shift. It was a truly lovely experience.
Giving birth in an overcrowded London hospital however, quite different......

Oh and MrsBean, lest I scared you, and caused more upset, I'm fairly sure that hypoglycaemia is only a real danger in the hours and day after the birth - you should be well past that!

I am trying not to think about it MrsSnoops. This is the appropriate way of dealing with something when you are Australian. You think: 'Nope, too hard, I just won't think about it and eventually the problem will go away'.

Actually am leaning towards a homebirth this time in any case, I wouldn't have if at home, but I also can't face the flight now either - so a bit of a bugger really.

I think the midwives at C&W are a bit concerned about my attitude though (I don't think they have encountered anyone quite as lazy as I am) - wait until they meet DH!

I would definitely step away from the PC. You had a baby 12 days ago. This is probably the most emotionally fraught time of your life. You don't need randomers on the internet making you feel like shit.

in the nicest possible way

GO AWAY
LOG OFF
FOCUS ON THE BABY

if it upset you so much why the fuck start another thread?

I wish you and your baby the very best, but I am baffled by you spendING your time online upsetting yourself arguing with complete bloody strangers, STOP IT !!! do you think this thread is going to make yourself feel better? NO IT WONT

I am sure you are sleep deprived and worried and this wont help!! x

morloth, I think there is often confusion about the pooing - it is perfectly true that for many breastfed babies it is perfectly normal to go a long time without pooing.

BUT

this is not normal in a newborn - it's later on when their bowel matures a little. In the first few weeks they should poo lots! And certainly with my 3, lack of poos was indicative of poor feeding. Once the feeding picked up, so did the poos.

At home I think they go on wees - [mists of time emoticon here](after the initial meconium poos), so as long as you are getting wet nappies and baby looks well, it is OK.

DS rarely got weighed at all because he had a dodgy foot which required a cast so that would have thrown the weight measurements off anyway.

The research is pretty clear on this - lack of pooing in the newborn period with a large initial loss of weight equals 'lets look at what this baby is doing with the feeding'. Often, this will reassure - the baby is now clearly feeding often and well, though there may well have been a slow start.

Other times, it won't reassure and the mother and the baby need help and support to make bf go well.

I think it's reasonable to have a baby weighed if there is no poo in the newborn period, because it gives another part of the picture. Most babies are likely to be fine, even so. But given that a few babies look as if they are feeding often and well, and they actually aren't, and also given the fact that midwives no longer see mothers and babies every day, weighing is a useful thing.

And while wet nappies are important, of course, a sequence of dry nappies is a very late sign of ineffective feeding....lack of poo comes before lack of wee, IYSWIM.

I don't think it's enough for the baby to 'looks well' - fine for someone who's seen plenty of babies, but not these days, as many parents have not seen lots of newborns. And also, babies can look fine, for the present, and still not be feeding well.....early signs of poor feeding are best nipped in the bud before they start causing problems.

so true tiktok

god, some of you are all heart

Not disagreeing with you tiktok just saying how it was done when I had DS and have mentioned this thread to another girlfriend who had twins in Oz, in October and she is being given the same advice.

Well
After all of this, I managed to talk to a lovely lady from La Leche today who advised me to kick up a major fuss with the community m/w's and insist on a referral to the lactation consultant (given this was suggested). I rang and said I needed an urgent referral and we got an appointment for 1pm today. We spent about an hour and a half there..

The lactation consultant explained that in 99.9% of cases, poor weight gain and even weight loss at this stage will be related, as tiktok says above, to poor feeding.. and, in the general population, only very rarely linked to other reasons such as metabolic disorders etc (which would, she said, almost certainly affect wee output/colouring/tone also). In the absence of other indicators of having a 'poorly baby', she said the problem is nearly always going to be to do with feeding..

After watching, she suggested that ds's problems were to do with positioning and an ineffective/weak suck and swallow co-ordination.. like his dad, ds has a very receded chin and he apparently has a very slight tongue tie (I am a Speech and Language Therapist and had thought this when I saw his tongue shape/frenulum). It's not bad enough to need to be snipped, but essentially his mouth is quite small (again, a family trait) and he is not really taking in enough breast tissue to stimulate milk ducts efficiently. Also, because he was leading with his nose (because of the receding chin) he was effectively reducing his breathing stamina and losing strength on the suckle/losing milk flow and falling asleep. This is despite an outwardly perfect latch. We have been given advice/demonstrations on the position and are now going to switch-feed to train the suckle (putting the weak "flutter" suckle on extinction). We will do this and express for 48 hours, have him reweighed.. at that point, if he has LOST more than 60g I will be advised to supplement with formula and EBM until he gets back to birthweight.. if he MAINTAINS I will be advised to express more and might be put on something to up my supply.. As long as he is producing output and shows no other signs of being unwell, this is the action plan. Obviously if he becomes unwell all of that goes up in the air.. but fingers crossed.

Thanks again to everyone for supportive messages.

To the poster who suggested about the blood sugar, this is VERY interesting.. I guess I had essentially stopped eating when I started stressing and maybe this made me go a bit loopy (with the normal sleep deprivation stuff going on too). I have always suffered badly with hormonal moods e.g. when having my period and I know that bloood sugar being low used to affect that.. so am upping the carbs..

So glad you have had some more answers to your questions MrsBean and that maybe you are beginning to see a light at the end of the tunnel, I really hope things work out for you and that little man begins to pile the weight on!
Remember to try and get some help for you too, I've suffered from PND with both my DC's (the first was a result of DS's feeding problems) It was a horrible horrible time. Honestly thought I was going mental (looking back some of my reactions to stuff seem insane now) I think you've had some harsh reactions on here from certain people but don't let them put you off mumsnet. Wish both you and your DS all the best. x