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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think that a child with SEN should not be exempt from some attempt at behaviour control.

185 replies

NaccetyMac · 12/12/2009 20:14

Today at a fete, a small child took a toy from my DS1 and was playing with it. I told him (pleasantly) that it was DS1's toy and asked for it back. His mother turned around from her (clearly very important) convo to at me and say "he's disabled, he don't understand." And make no attempt to take the toy from the child.
So I explained to him again that it was not his toy, found him another toy to replace it with, gave it to him and took DS1's toy away out of sight. Mother turns around and says (again) "HE'S DISABLED, HE DON'T UNDERSTAND."

OK. SO get off your bum, stop ignorning him and HELP him to understand.

Really angers me, that some people appear to think that an additional need gives them carte blanche to ignore behaviour and totally fail to apply boundaries!

OP posts:
SantaWears2shoes · 13/12/2009 18:06

NaccetyMac not once in your op did you say your child had SN, nor did you explain that, you just made judgements on another mother and how she dealt with her child, and showed a total lack of understanding.
she told you he couldn't understand, yet you disagree, yet you don't even know what sn he had......................

pagwatch · 13/12/2009 18:07

But if the issue was with a particular type of parenting I wonder that you referred very particularly and solely to SN in the op?

I see a great deal of very uninterested parenting inthe big bad world. I think I probably see less in the SN community than elsewhere but obviously I couldn't be sure.

And I suspect we all think what we like don't we?

All kind of confirms my suspicion of the ' refer to SN in order to create a barny' strategy. Makes a pretty dull OP waaay more interesting

Original poster
NaccetyMac · 13/12/2009 18:08

But if the child doesn't understand, or is not capable of understanding, then she has a duty to help the child to cope in social situations, does she not? If the child cannot understand that it is not OK to take another child's toy, does that social rule suddenly cease to apply on that occasion?

So the boundaries the mother failed to apply were the problem. She did not do anything. The child may not understand now, but she does.

OP posts:
pagwatch · 13/12/2009 18:09

I went to a fete and a child pushed in in front of my child.
"There is a queue for this" I said with a smile.
"Fuck off" he said.
His mother giggled.

Actually true. But not unusual and not very interesting

cyberseraphim · 13/12/2009 18:12

It is hard for parents who don't have a disabled child to understand what it is like. I sometimes think I'd be better off explaining calculus to DS1 (ASD). But you have to be forgiving of their ignorance. Cognitive and mental disorders do pose problems for those who want 'Toytown' rules everywhere. What would a parent like that do if a child in a wheelchair ran on over their child's toy ? Shout at the mother for poor driving ? But it could also be that the SN/SEN waters are quite muddy encompassing a child with no receptive or expressive language to an NT child with a specific but minor and temporary issue. I don't think the words SN or SEN mean much to anyone anymore.

I think the only thing the mother understands is there are narcissistic parents who fuss on about anything to do with their own child - but then I'm sure she has understood that for a long time.

SantaWears2shoes · 13/12/2009 18:14

NaccetyMac why did you post in AIBU?(geunine question) you don't seem to think you are.

lisad123wantsherquoteinDM · 13/12/2009 18:15

Its a difficult one to answer. I get fed up with saying sorry for DD1 who will not make eye contact or say hi to people that she doesnt like or know. Im not going to force her, its such hardwork, get her all upset and i also get tired of explaining. maybe said terrible mother felt the same?

Do try and teach DD1 most of the social rules though

cyberseraphim · 13/12/2009 18:17

I personally do a lot of teaching and DS1 is generally better than most NT children but he does not have the imagination to do anything except follow the rules. He would quite happily hand back any toy to anyone.

coppertop · 13/12/2009 18:21

"But if the child doesn't understand, or is not capable of understanding, then she has a duty to help the child to cope in social situations, does she not?"

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "cope" in this particular case?

Do you mean that she should have done what you did with the toy? Surely that is more about rectifying the situation than helping the boy to cope.

If a child has no understanding then how on earth can you make them understand?

VirginPeachyMotherOfSpod · 13/12/2009 18:37

OOh Pag we went to Maccy D's (yeah whateva LOL) yesterday after SN Rugby and when we sat down some kids came and moved all our stuff onto the floor and sat down in the spaces between the boys,meaning we had to go and find another table as no room for the rest of us (DH was buying and I was manoevreing the buggy). The Mum told them to do it to make us clar off, I did tell the children i thought theyn were incredibly rude but they stared at me slackjawed with no comprehension seemingly of what I meant.

Not interesting either but nonehteless annoyed me at the time.

RE The apologies thing, I apologise for failing to control the boys and if I have to I will make ds3 apologise (he hasn't a clue what he is doing) but nopthing on earth will induce me to force ds1 even when people have insisted as it winds him to a point where I usually get a thump when I get home.

VirginPeachyMotherOfSpod · 13/12/2009 18:40

'Im not going to force her, its such hardwork, get her all upset and i also get tired of explaining. maybe said terrible mother felt the same?'

Quite, and when I am having a bad spell of nights with my 4 non sleepers (only 2 disabled- ds2 won't sleep becuase of ds1 /ds3 disturning him, ds4 is possibly AS but tooyoung and hasn't gone through the night mroew than 5 timesin his 20 months) me acting at optimum eficiency and doing my best possible stll isn't going to rate highly compared to when someone has had a good sleep is it?

pagwatch · 13/12/2009 18:54

at Peachy.
But when you are a special mum every moment is a therapy moment....

We ( and by we I mean DS1) tried to teach DS2 rugby. I thought it a little ambitious. But he spent several days out in the garden over the summer and now, if you give DS2 a rugby ball he will - without fail- throw it into the roses and run in the house

Time well spent !

sarah293 · 13/12/2009 19:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

VirginPeachyMotherOfSpod · 13/12/2009 19:51

PMSL at you both

DS1 asked why they don't play any other teams with their SN rugby club.If I say that there is a wide range of ADD, ASD,VI, GDD,possible FAS.......

I reckon most people can imagine why LOL

(not to say the team ahven;t sone a magnnificent job, they have and do,bloody brilliant)

donkeyderby · 13/12/2009 23:59

Sorry, not enough time to read through this, but I have an SN child with challenging behaviour and I would have explained, apologised and given the toy back. Disability is an excuse for the child takiing the toy, but not for the parent to fail to intervene.

I would just hope that people are understanding that some of parents of SN kids are trying really hard to control our children's behaviour and life is much more difficult for us than for 'normal' families.

Pixel · 14/12/2009 00:23

If ds took a toy from another child I would probably say "he's disabled he doesn't understand" too. But I would be handing back the toy as I said it. Surely that's just the right thing to do? It's not the other little child's fault that ds has ASD.

I know how it feels to see your child upset because he has had a toy taken off him (I mean by a stranger, without asking, obviously they have to learn to share), so I wouldn't think it acceptable to let ds hang on to the toy, even though he wouldn't necessarily understand why it was wrong.

Mind you, ds has never actually done this, he is very passive and a bit scared of other children I think. However he has had toys taken from him plenty of times (by NT children) and I found it heartbreaking because he wouldn't retaliate and is non-verbal so his little face would just crumple. Unfortunately it was left to me to intervene (in a friendly way) as the mums did nothing so I know how the OP feels.

MavisEnderby · 14/12/2009 01:07

me too pixel.DD has sn and when other children (ie ds take toys off her she just looks upset and confused!)

OP i somewhat see your point,dd is quite passive though does tantrm at times,and I do make an effort to instill good behaviour,for instnce,in shop today,"dd give the Lady the chocolate" and dd gave the lady the tube of Smarties.It has taken me months,though to get her to coceptualise this.I will discipline her for bad behaviour but it needs to be in immediate and simple terms.I do think that most children (ASD EXCEPTED BECAUSE OF PROCESSING ISSUES AT TIMES) can understand if given instruction,but if left to herself dd would not understand.The range of sn is vast so I think you need to understand this,my friends ds would not bew able to process such stuff but it doesn't make them a bad child,his brain is just not wired to understand.So I think you shouldn't lump all sn into one,also it my be taht his mum had had a really bad day and just couldn't take any more.I have been there a few times with dd but am reaLLY WORKING ON "wAITING" and "sharing" atm with dd.It takes time but we are gradually getting therer but I wouldn't denigrate any mum for a one off incident if she haf had a really stressful day

nappyaddict · 14/12/2009 04:27

My DS has SN. I would have said to you "Sorry he doesn't understand because he has SN. Would you mind if he keeps hold of it until I can distract him and take it away without him realising?"

Allidon · 14/12/2009 10:58

nappyaddict but the OP's child also has additional needs. Which child's needs are most important, the child who took the toy who will potentially have a meltdown if the toy is taken from him, or the OP's child who is currently having his own meltdown due to the loss of his toy?

I agree with this comment from donkeyderby: "Disability is an excuse for the child takiing the toy, but not for the parent to fail to intervene."

FanjoForTheMankySocks · 14/12/2009 11:05

but the OP wasn't about the parent not intervening. She specifically said the parent should be teaching the child who doesn't understand. Which is BU.

This other point of view about the parent intervening has sprung up in the thread, and was not the view of the original OP!

FanjoForTheMankySocks · 14/12/2009 11:06

so I still think the OP is horrible, in case anyone hadn't noticed..

Mamazontopofsantabeingrude · 14/12/2009 11:11

firstly, i wouldn't have taklen the toy away but asked the mother to do it.

secondly Ds has asd and yes when he was smaller he would have trouble understanding ownership of items he saw as desireable./

did'nt mean he was allowed to pick things up that weren't his.
He would have had it taken off of him and told no its not yours. the toy would have been given back and i would have explained he had ASD and if they could keep the toy out of his way otherwise he would probably just take it again (sadly often with force)

Having a child with SN doesn't excuse you from parenting and i get a little frustrated that peole think that it does.
Its this attitude of "he has SN i can't tell him off" that allows parents of Nt children to assume that our children cannot be invited to parties or playdates as they are clearly uncontrollable. thisis simply not true.

Allidon · 14/12/2009 11:14

But surely if no attempt at teaching is made, no understanding will ever take place? My almost 6 year old has additional needs, he doesn't understand a lot of things but I still attempt to teach him and give him good/bad consequences for his actions, just in a different way that most people might with their NT 6 year olds. I could just say "oh, he doesn't understand" and go no further, but that would benefit no one. Maybe he will never understand certain things, but if I never try to teach him, he definately won't. Isn't that the point the OP was making?

FanjoForTheMankySocks · 14/12/2009 11:44

well, possibly, but that was worded a lot more pleasantly.

FanjoForTheMankySocks · 14/12/2009 11:45

I might even sound like i don't discipline my DD, who has little understanding, in fact I do.

I suppose I just feel that parents with SN have a hard time and don't need to go ripping into each other. If the OP had been worded like Allidon's post, ir having a little more sympathy and understanding, it would be much more acceptable.

I think most parents are just doing their best, and don't need people ranting at them to "get off their bum"s.