to think it's unreasonable to "absent" grandparents to show up for all the good bits?

[loonpants]

Bit of background.

We live in our home town but our only family is my in-laws.

My in-laws are alright in a sort of "meh" kind of way. They don't show much emotion, MIL is a bit thin-lipped (think Pauline Fowler). They don't offer any help with the kids; visit in fits and starts (every weekend for a few weeks then nothing for a couple of months).

When they do visit, they don't get terribly involved with the kids. I think they like the trappings of being grandparents (photographs on the mantlepiece etc) but don't want to get their hands dirty. They have friends who are involved with their grandchildren (in terms of helping or babysitting) and I know for a fact that one of them warned my MIL against offering too much help when our first child was born.

Alright, that's their choice. It's a real disappointment and we do feel unsupported but we've found some babysitters and occasionally manage to get out (well, once in the past 5 months!).

As an example, DD1 is appearing in a little ballet show in our town centre next month. We have three tickets so offered one to my MIL and asked whether FIL would mind walking the baby for an hour in the town centre while we watch the show. He has reluctantly agreed but is clearly very put out at the thought so we've made alternative arrangements and now have a babysitter coming to the house for the afternoon. TBH I feel like retracting the ticket from my MIL given their attitude, but it's a bit late as we've mentioned it.

They are both 60. They go on holiday abroad about three times a year, perfectly fit and well. They come back from their holidays and sit and tell us all about what a nice time they've had, completely failing to acknowledge what a rough time we're having looking after two small kids. They are away at the moment and I know they'll be round here next week showing us their photographs of Lanzarote.

The reason I'm posting is because MIL has suddenly mentioned that she wants to take DD1 to see a pantomime this Christmas. It's on a weekday when I couldn't go because I have nobody to care for the baby.

Now normally, I'd think this is lovely. I would LOVE my children to have grandparents who take them for a day out BUT - going to the pantomime is something I really look forward to. It's like one of the best bits of being a mum, something nice in the middle of all the hard work. I was really hoping to take DD myself and completely resent my MIL muscling in for all the "good bits" when she offers no practical help (or even consistency) for the rest of the year.

AIBU?

see, we have lots of friends and we look at their relationships with the grandparents.

There's a lot of variation.

We have several friends who's parents look after the kids to give them a break for a whole weekend. In one case, the couple go abroad for weekends. This seems a lot to ask, I'd never expect that, would be much too hard work for the GPs but in their case they are happy so it works well.

We have friends who's parents visit at the same time every week and do something with the kids; perhaps take them to the park. Gives them chance to do the ironing or whatever. "Cuts them some slack".

We have friends who share sunday lunch with the grandparents. Friends who have grandparents who take the kids on holiday with them.

Friends who's grandparents are dead. .

The common factor seems to be a desire to spend time with the next generation, particulalry at xmas and birthdays. At the very least, all of our friends can count on PILs tunring up at xmas or for birthdays.

I can honestly say that (amongst a large circle of friends) we are the only ones who spend xmas day alone while the PILs are in their own house locally. It's lonely. I feel sorry for my girls that they don't have any family influence.

Arwen, I've no idea why you think this about gifts. They have done this ever since our first child was born.

OP, how old are your daughters?

Do you go out to work?

When mine were young, it would never have occurred to my Ils or indeed my parents that I needed help.

surely encouraging dd to have a relationship with gps is the last thing you want to be doing if they are as unreliable as OP says - just setting her up to be hurt?

I can perhaps see why your FIL doesn't want sole charge of your baby.

Once when DS was a lot younger I was at my parents and Mum & I were going to go to the shops and leave Dad with DS for a short while, say an hour or so. I asked Mum how Dad would cope with a dirty nappy and her response was that he would leave it until we came home
So we took DS with us and as if to prove a point he had an absolute humdinger of a nappy whilst we were out shopping, luckily at a location with toilets. I dread to think how his poor bottom might have looked had he had to fester in it for an hour, bleugh.

However no point getting annoyed about it, my father is from the generation that did little childcare and I believe he didn't change many of my nappies, so it's unlikely he is going to alter at this stage of his life.

Could be that your FIL is similar and is terrified with the practicalities of coping with small baby.

Is there anyone else you can cultivate to provide some mutual support, neighbours or Mums from any groups you go to as it appears to be a mutually unbeneficial relationship you have with the ILs and perhaps if you had absome support from elsewhere it may make it easier for you to bear.

they are 4 and 5 months

I do go out to work, yes. I have three jobs spanning four days.

Your dh needs to explain to them how it is affecting you both if it is that bad that you would even think of saying no to your dd having a lovely afternoon with her nan.

FWIW i agree with you that in 10/15/20 years time they could well need your help and are daft not to look long term. This is what families are for surely? They had help when their dc were young and accepted that, it is a shame they aren't passing it onto you. Yes, as parents we cant expect it. But it is lovely to be given a chance to accept it.

But as i say, your dh is the one to talk to them and explain how it makes him and dd feel when they are dropped like last years episode. It's not up to you, they aren't your parents and you will get any flack going if you do it.

You've been out in the last five months!

The ILs come many weekends a year. You've let slip in subsequent postings that well, they did look after the kids a couple of times but seemed terribly put out to be kept until midnight (what did you agree in advance? It may not have been your fault you were late but it was hardly theirs either, was it?)

The letdown at Christmas last year was terrible. But perhaps your MIL thought she was being nice to you by offering the panto? I mean, you want them to take the pressure off by reading to DD1 while you feed the baby. How much nicer for them to take her totally off your hands for a couple of hours at a panto? How could she know in advance that you really wanted to do it yourself?

And incidentally, the way your posts read is that this panto visit is your only pleasure of the year and the rest of the time it's ceaseless toil and a terrible struggle. If this is anywhere close to the truth you need to address it somehow. Perhaps by honestly talking to the ILs that you're struggling, or by making other changes.

FWIW my parents are almost totally uninvolved with my DSs. They only ever visit if they're on the way to the airport for their holidays, and occasionally cancel because the flight times change or whatever. My mother always buys her own presents (she apparently resented having her parents send money for us when we were little and so always does her own shopping) BUT she's crap at taking them to the post office so they don't always arrive on time, and then she promises to ring DS1 and explain but doesn't always.

That's to say I know what it's like to have very little help from parents. It is easy to get bent out of shape and tight lipped about it and it really isn't IMO a good idea. I don't want to sour what relationship my DSs do have with their grandparents because that would be terribly sad and a bit selfish, and would prevent the relationship from ever improving.

Loonpants - because you have a need to control - not in a nasty/vicious way but you have very obvious ''expectations'' - I am just guessing that you give off vibes of ''not good enough'' ''wrong colour'' ''you should do more'' -

I donnt want to be mean - but you sound uptight and ungrateful - they may want to be around your DC's but not you - This may be blunt but its how you come across to me.

You sound unhappy with your lot IYKWIM

I just wonder what is the significance of the holidays they take?

Do you like/get on with your ILs?

I don´t have a great relationship with mine, but we don´t not get on iyswim.

But when we were still in UK, they would moan about how infrequently they saw the children, but would insist on coming at the weekend so that they could spend the day with husband(only child) as well.

They would never spend a day with just me & thechildren & be content with an hour with husband when he came in from work.

Never could understand that.

They could have seen the children much more often.

Loonpants - So do you want more contact with GP's to cut you some slack? or because you want your children to have a closer relationship with GP's?

If its the second i can see exactly where you are coming from as i too wish my DC's had a closer relationship with GP. But sometimes you just have to take what you are given and make the most of it.

eh?

I have two gorgeous kids, a lovely DH and lots of friends.

I'm not unhappy, though it's a struggle with the kids on occasion, especially on wet weekends!

It's a bit of both, claw, but mainly because I want them to have the relationship.

I want them to feel part of a family beyond our front door

"In ten, fifteen years, they will need our help. What would mumsnet advise then?"

that your husband and his siblings look after them. I do think children have more responsibility to the cate of their parents than grandparents have towards the care of their grandchildren.

So are your children at school/nursery when you work?

In which case days that gps can visit are already limited.

Loonpants - Then encourage all contact. You mention about granddad not wanting to babysit for younger dc (5 months old?) perhaps he doesnt feel confident? he might have to change a nappy and talk baby talk, some people especially older men, it doesnt come naturally!

Loonpants - sorry but the I'm very happy thank you very much, sounds weak and trying to justify yourself.

Before it was a slog, you need help to feed the baby while someone read to your other child etc - also mention of holidays and all that. Before it was about them helping you not about bonding as a huge happy family.

OP, what aren´t they doing that you would like them to?

thing is, you can't force a relationship that is not reciprical.

The reality is that becoming a grandparent isn't something that one necessarily chooses, and however much we may think it should happen, for some people, becoming a grandparent actually has very little meaning, similarly becoming an auntie/uncle etc..

You can't dictate how other people should feel about your children, and at the end of the day, the children aren't going to lose out on a relationship that was never there in the first place iyswim.

You know the 1st reply you got was all you need

Go to the panto as well, arrange a babysitter.

It is nice that grandma wants to take her.

It is annoying they don't help more but at least they are involved.

Some children don't have any grandparents at all.

YY no way my dad or FIL would look after a baby in nappies, or not fully toilet trained. It's just how it is, and as such i wouldn't expect them to except in dire emergency.

In fact they would be unlikely to do it by themselves even when kids older I would think.

I also have friends whose parents & ILs have kids for weekends holidays etc but i think that is exceptional rather than the norm. They are very lucky, and my arrangements are normal. Not they have normal things and I am hard done by.

As for looking after them, that is down to your OH. Did they look after him, change his nappies, buy him presents, wash his school uniform etc etc. That is the "deal" with who looks after who, if you want to see it as a deal. It's normally the children who look after elderly parents, not grandchildren. Althoughn nice if GCs help out.

I'll come back to this after tea tonight, baby is now awake and wnting to play!

I'll just come back to the bit about grandad not wanting to babysit.

It's not a case of him babysitting.

It's a case of him pushing the baby round the town centre in her pushchair for an hour while we are in the show. She would be asleep. She sleeps in the afternoon if you take her out in the pram. We told him that. And if she woke up or dirtied her nappy, he could text us and we would come out. It wouldn't be hard, just obv too hard for him!

I think being a grandparent is partly about only doing the good bits of childrearing, that's a big difference between being a parent and grandparent, mind you my grandparents lives some distance away, as do my kids' grandparents. Some parents seem to expect a huge amount from grandparents. I think taking kids out for outings and treats and buying them presents and doing the good stuff is what being a grandparent is all about.
On the other hand if you particularly want to take your kids to a panto then fair enough to say no to them doing that, although most areas have enough pantos that they could take your daughter to one and you to another if you don't all want to go together.

Perhaps for your FIL it´s not having the baby so much as having to "kill" an hour in a shopping centre?

loonpants

re one of your comments:-

"I was close to my nana. She was a lovely link to the past. I hoped for the same for my children".

Your ILs sound very similar to my own and I could have written much of this in a similar vein (about my parents as well) some years back.

These people only get out of a relationship what they are prepared to put into it. If they are not fully prepared to put the emotional effort in then there is not all that much you can do. All you can instead do is find good friends and role models. My DS is a bit older than your two children but his relationships with his gps are fleeting. We know them as gps yes and they have all the photos, but that's about it really.

I once saw a C4 programme where a family advertised for a "surrogate" grandparent; I thought I could have put myself forward for that programme.

Some would say it is "their loss", problem with this is they likely do not see it that way.