parents who speak French to their tots who aren't actually French

[becstarlitsea]

pretentious, non?

I've got a friend and an acquaintance who do this. I excuse my friend on the basis that although she isn't French, her grandmother was, and my friend does speak very good French. I still think it's a bit teensy bit barmy, especially as both of her kids are so far behind in their speech development for their age (in either language) but each to their own, and no doubt they'll catch up later...

But then the acquaintance doesn't actually speak very good French - it's just about post-A-level standard. But she insists in speaking French to her kids who are all under 6. None of the kids can talk at all in either language - not un mot.

Bourgeois pushy parenting or a sensible addition to their children's cultural life? (Must admit my DSs cultural life consists of Diego and Dora marathons when I've got flu)

I hate it.

My dp is French; there's nothing I can do about that unfortunately, but for our dd to communicate with her gps, she is going to have to learn French- hopefully dp will be able to teach her, because I would rather gnaw my own arm off than send her to those classes.

YANBU

no I don't think it's pretentious.

I am SHITE at French and german but I still use it occasionally with my children in order to get them used to the patterns and intonation (my accent is OK, vocab is rubbish) and this morning ds1 said he knew what some phrase meant, I said did you learn it at school, he said no, so I guess it is because I use it a lot instead of the English version.

I dunno, maybe your friends are pretentious anyway but I don't think this language thing is a bad thing.

It is very misguided to speak a language to a child that you do not master. Not good practise at all.

surely teaching them to say 'cheers' in French isn't going to damage their skills later in life though Anna.

possibly pretentious

but having said that the younger you learn a language the better your brain is 'wired' to pick up other languages iyswim - babies lose the ability to hear the sounds that don't feature in the language they hear all the time after about twelve months or so (can't remember the exact time) - so speaking to them in another language can give them a head start

I see your point about it not being 'correct' French but tbh if you want to get children past the 'embarrassment' point of speaking another language (height of which imo is at secondary school age when children first learn a second language in this country) then exposing them to a second language at a young age is a good start.

bilingual children often speak later anyway

Sorry should have specified - I'm talking about parents who ONLY speak to their children in French, who are not French themselves. Not teaching them the odd phrase.

It's a fantastic advantage for children to be brought up speaking two languages. It's far harder to learn a new language as an adult.

As for the children's language delay, most children who are brought up speaking two languages will not have a significant language delay.

My children are being brought up in a bilingual household. DD1 had speech delay due to a hearing problem, now the hearing problem is solved she speaks good Flemish and very nice (if a little babyish) english.

DD2 has had no problems at all, and most children I know have had no problems.

I only speak my own language to my children, I would find it strange to speak to them in flemish all the time.

Not sure if your friends are pretentious or not, but the advise is never to speak (constantly) to your dc in a language which is not your first language.

I personally think it is crazed. It seems to be fashionable, however. My DS and DD (3 and 1) have a book which I bought - it shows trees, seasons, animals etc that sort of thing and when I turned one of the pages, I found an entire double page where the words were all French! I thought, WTF? Is this a printing error? Then I realised that this is what people actually want and it was quite deliberate.

Babies do pick up the sounds for language when they are under 12m - so if you have one English parent and one French parent, babies will pick up the proper sounds/accent for both languages. However, an English person who has done something like A level French (rather than being a native speaker) doesn't get the accent quite right themselves so the baby will not assimilate the native accent and so it is POINTLESS!

I am totally pro learning languages, I will be happy for my DS and DD to learn French when the time comes. Currently, however, they are trying to learn English.

My DS had french lessons from the age of 2 until he left primary school at one of those classes.

His French vocab is way, way better than mine, but I get by with rusty O-level French (a long, long time ago) when I go to France.

I'd love to be fluent in another language, but am probably too old to start learning.

I'm going to send DD to one of those classes too.....

belgo - I think it is really different in a bilingual household and agree with you that is a fantastic advantage. It's when 2 English parents start speaking in French that is silly because there is no "native" component which is the real advantage to children like yours.

I think it would be incredibly hard to keep up. It's going against your natural instincts to speak in a non-native language to your children.

PMSL - I've never come across that but I think it's ridiculous. I think the benefits of learning two languages are outweighed by the disadvantages of having your primary carer talk to you in a language that is not their own. Plus, I doubt you will learn good French from someone who is only at A level themselves.

Have never met a non-Francophone who exclusively speaks French to their child/ren - are you quite sure this is the case with your acquaintance?

If they speak French on a regular basis to their kids it's not pretentious IMO, just obviously different to what you do...

Good luck to any parents who aren't actually French/fluent if they plan to ONLY speak French to their kids. I imagine they'll be doing more harm than good ('harm' in terms of passing on atrocious franglais phrases) but I suppose the good intentions are there.
Kids pick up foreign languages a million times faster when they are little than when they get older (I was sent to a French-speaking school from 3yrs old and learnt to speak it as naturally as I did English. You don't even think about it, it just happens.) However, that would NOT have happened if my Dad had been teaching me some pidgin version from home.
So, yes, I suppose it s a bit pretentious, but egg on their face because it will most certainly NOT result in some cultured, euro, multi-lingual offspring.

I think in the future I may fall into your category bec (though not completely)!

I don't have children yet, but I lived in France when I was little though both my parents are English, and have subsequently lived and worked there as an adult (now back in the UK). French is my second language, but I am very fluent. DP is English and speaks no French. Having seen the advantage of learning a second language so young I would be keen for my children to hear french from a young age, though i wouldn't speak exculsively in french, partly for Franca's reasons but also because i like speaking english too and bearing in mind English is my first language it would be weird in some situations.

But cross that bridge and all that - who knows how I will feel at the time!

Obviously not a Chomsky-ite then. If you learn a language as a small child then it really opens the brain to learning and thought.

I wish I had learned a second language when I was little. The benefits of being not only to talk fluently (and with little accent) but be able to understand concepts must be amazing.

Becstar - sorry, am I getting you right here? You mean this parent always speaks in a foreign language (not her own language or one she's really fluent in) when she speaks to her DC? She never speaks to them in her own language?

I can only think that would damage their ability to pick up language at all - we pick up our first language (or more in a bilingual household) by hearing them used fluently in normal use all round us, but specially from our parents if that's who we spend most time with.

'are you quite sure this is the case'

Yep. I see her regularly and noticed that she always spoke French to them and [pedant alert] noticed her sloppy agreements and funny accent. I asked if she always speaks French to them and she said yes, said that I should start, gives them such a head start in life, so important to give them every advantage blah blah. But I'm not French, so I'm not going to start talking French all the time to DS. I tell him about simple phrases every now and then (Bonjour, svp, je vous en prie etc etc) but I don't expect him to remember them. He's 3 FFS. If I was actually French, or if DH was, or if we had any intention of living there, it would be different.

Living in Germany I have come across quite a few German mothers who only speak English to their dc and it is abit strange because they and their dc speak with strong accents and make mistakes but then again, rather that than not speak it at all and they (the dc) can always work on it later at school or on travels in Englsih speaking countries.

It gives them a good start for learning the language at school and they all spoke perfect German too due to living in Germany so maybe more benefit than harm I'd think?

If your accent's good, then speaking different languages in the first year is a good thing - after a certain amount of time (can't remember how much exactly) the brain can't actually hear and process sounds specific to another language - hence the old chinese 'rubbery' for 'lovely' stereotype.

But if you're saying 'bon-chewer mon onfont' then you're doing no-one any favours

And btw, I don't see anything wrong with the classes either. As far as I can tell, most of them seem to be based on having fun, singing, playing games etc. Children's vocab, confidence and pleasure in communicating increases hugely. And it then stays in their heads despite the (sometimes) rubbish teenage stage where they think it's not cool to be good at French etc. What's not to like?

I found it incredibly unnatural to speak in English to my children when we were living in the UK.
Since we moved back to Italy, we half heartedly tried to speak to them in english during dinners etc, but they were .
We have an English lovely lady who comes once a week to speak/play with them.

a lovely english lady... see? Better not speak in english to my dc

What a lot of people seem to say (including a little bit on this thread, but also from other parents I meet) is 'I wish I'd had the chance to learn when I was a kid'. I don't understand that - you're not dead yet, if you want to learn a language, learn one yourself, get thee to a class! It might be easier as a child but it's not impossible as an adult. You can become fluent in a language as an adult by studying hard and practising every day. You just have to work a bit harder, that's all. Bit like keeping the weight off as we reach our late thirties...