parents who speak French to their tots who aren't actually French

[becstarlitsea]

pretentious, non?

I've got a friend and an acquaintance who do this. I excuse my friend on the basis that although she isn't French, her grandmother was, and my friend does speak very good French. I still think it's a bit teensy bit barmy, especially as both of her kids are so far behind in their speech development for their age (in either language) but each to their own, and no doubt they'll catch up later...

But then the acquaintance doesn't actually speak very good French - it's just about post-A-level standard. But she insists in speaking French to her kids who are all under 6. None of the kids can talk at all in either language - not un mot.

Bourgeois pushy parenting or a sensible addition to their children's cultural life? (Must admit my DSs cultural life consists of Diego and Dora marathons when I've got flu)

Can anyone explain to me why "little Johnny heading off to learn French on a Saturday and then sharing his new songs with you" is any more harmful than little Johnny being brought up to share any other interest the family may have? Yes, it is a middle class interest- so is learning to play the viola or ride a pony or sail a dinghy: are all these harmful just because they happen to be primarily middle class? Of course you need time for pottering around the garden: does that mean a child can't do anything other than pottering? Most children I know do do some sort of activity.

To me, having language lessons from an early age was just a natural way of sharing my family's interests. Like sailing the family boat or singing around the piano. It wasn't about pretentiousness; it was about sharing things we enjoyed as a family. No different from if they had taken us to football matches.

No, it was not a living language situation, we did not instantly develop balanced bilingualism (though I have come closer to it later in life)- but it was still a good thing to do. And it's what children in other countries have to do in any case: learn at least one foreign language from a fairly early age, taught by non-native speakers. If it hadn't been my Mum who introduced me to languages, it would have been my junior school teacher. I was no more damaged than the 9 million other Swedes who have also been taught a second language: the only difference is that my English is rather better than that of most of my compatriots because I started earlier and had a more competent teacher. MIFLAW's dc will not be in a worse position compared to his/her peers who will presumably have to learn French at school a few years later in life, from a teacher who is likely to be far less fluent.

Cory, I think it is very important for children to have hobbies and activities. I also think they can benefit from language classes too. MrsBean used the term "hothousing" and that to me means filling up a child's time with activities thus putting them under pressure to constantly perform and leaving them with far too little time for free outdoor play. Apologies for being unclear on that.

BTW I don't see it as a class issue, I am from a working class background yet went horse-riding ever weekend, played the saxophone to grade 8 level and was obsessed with French. I think hobbies and classes are essential for children of any social class, but too many is harmful imo (ie hothousing).

Plus I only said I agreed the best way to learn a language is by exposure to authentic discourse. I have never said that any other method of language learning is harmful, because I think it's all beneficial. Anyway when you listen to French radio or read a French paper, that's authentic discourse, that's what I meant.

There are only two situations which I've said are detrimental imo: "hothousing" (whatever the activities) and a child not having sufficient exposure/training in any language to have at least one native language (examples of which you explained very clearly earlier re. expats etc)

I grew up in a very unpretentious working class council estate in Northern Ireland. That didn't stop me running around in jodhpurs all day, practising my French and taking (free) saxophone lesssons at school.

Learning a language is not pretentious. But there are pretentious people who think it is I'm sure. And plenty of unpretentious people who think it is too, but then I think that's why people are so crap at languages in the UK.

Cory - I think generally it IS a good idea to speak a second language with your child (I am not talking strict OPOL) so the child sees that speaking another language is 'something we do'. I think it is important, if possible, to also provide exposure to Mother-tongue speakers. From what I have experienced I would also recommend sending children to good language classes that give them opportunities to meet peers with the same value of said language, break down pronounciation, grammar and expose children to a wider vocabulary (thus giving the children fuel to giggle at their parent's accent and grammar mistakes when they reach their teens).

I know several families that do this and it is very efficient. One girl is now studying for a degree in English (as her second language) at the Sorbonne and has her eye on a "delicious Irish boy". While a boy I know speaks English (his second language)with a slight American accent and has just got next to full marks on his PET exam using this recipe for success (interestingly his Mother has quite basic EFL but part of this recipe is that they always speak English at dinner). I also have a third example but I am nervous to use her because she sounds too good to be true. She is French but speaks English with a middle class home counties accent and as I type is probably in a lecture or in a library because she is now a student at Cambridge university!

MIFLAW - If your life had been different and you had a comprehension of the advantages of speaking two languages without the competence to model it yourself wouldn't you send your dd to French classes on Saturdays?

Racingsnake - I think in my family we do the opposite of you! We live in France and speak English (my Mother-tongue) most of the time in our home and between us when we are out and about. DD and dh sometimes speak French (DH's strongest language) between them if it is what happens to come first and dh always reads to dd in French.

pispirispis - Over here, in Paris, there are a huge number of Irish people with working class backgrounds who are very good at French because they learnt it at school... Coming from an English working class background I have always found this a bit surprising as, for me and my peers, French was painted as something that was all very well and good for the grammar school kids to fill their heads with but hardly something we actually needed!

"But I would never speak German to her with the aim of her learning it, it's way too artificial a set-up to be effective."

Let me understand you, Andi - you have made no attempt to make your child bilingual, but have a thorough and instinctive knowledge of strategies that would work for doing so?

Impressive.

"MIFLAW - If your life had been different and you had a comprehension of the advantages of speaking two languages without the competence to model it yourself wouldn't you send your dd to French classes on Saturdays?"

How can I possibly know? But I would guess probably not. I would confidently predict that I could (like a lot of other people do) teach her the odd bit at home that I remembered from school and that, if she was keen, school would do the rest when the time came.

In general, I would be against activities at the weekend or in her free time that are explicitly "educational".

That's just me, though, and as I say I honestly don't know what "other me" would do.

I'm smiling to myself at the lure of a good looking Irish lad

I sometimes think our (British) hang up with languages has something to do with your accent being THE social marker number 1 in the UK. People will always place you (rightly or wrongly) according to your accent - supplemented with a bit of probing about re schools/father's job etc. And we frown on people who attempt to change their accent, they are then social climbers or just generally fake. In a way I wonder if this basic attitude hampers our ability to approach foreign language learning as something as self-evident as well learning to drive or sew, just another skill to be learnt.

I think it also lies behind the British view that no one can acquire a native sounding accent in a foreign language unless they learn it as a dc. This is so patently untrue though - look at all the people who manage to do so. They are not genetically different to us, they just place a value on it and consider it achievable (which is it). Although personally I see no real need for it.

ZZZenAgain

While I completely agree with you that it is possible to acquire a native-level accent even if one hasn't learnt a foreign language before secondary school, I don't think it is a given (ie not everyone will be able to achieve this) and there is a difference between peoples in this instance, as the sounds you use in your native language will impact your ability to acquire specific sounds in a foreign language.

I frankly don't find it necessary. I sometimes also think it can seem a bit contrived but that's just my opinion and is not really important.

I think everyone with a reasonable ear (the average person tbh) who pays attention to it will be able to do it. I sometimes think it is a bit of a holy cow in Britain.

.....reverent hush..... someone speaks French with NO foreign accent ..... can THINK in French....

You just wouldn't get that response in the majority of other (non English speaking) countries around the world, would you?

Some people possibly can never acquire a native sounding accent despite living fully immersed in that language for 20+ years but tbh I think this is connected to a mental blockage such as rejection of the culture of that country etc or a determination not to be swept into it but to maintain their cultural heritage which is reflected then in their speech (whether consciously or not).

I do agree though, some sounds can be very difficult to acquire but on the whole not, I think, impossible.

I'll just add here that I speak French with an English accent

just so no one feels unnecessarily awed

If I lived in France and put my mind to it, I should think I could fix that given time. I might also need the lure of a good looking man (I have generally found that the most effective language learning tool in my (not TOO vast) experience).

Is everyone else having to log in EVERY time they post today? Starting to annoy me

YANBU to find it pretentious. I speak French and Spanish (but am an English native speaker) and lots of people have asked me if I speak to my DD (2yo) in French and Spanish. Of course I don't . She's been given a few lovely French story books which I sometimes read to her and she mimics the sounds but I don't intend to try to teach her foreign languages until she's used to formal learning at school.

It can be done though. Haven't read all the threads on here so someone might have said this already but there is a well known linguist (can't remember the name but can probably find it if anyone's hugely interested) who brought up his son as bilingual English/German even though neither he nor his wife were native German speakers. I think they were American. It's obviously a bit of an artificial/weird thing to do but it is possible.

Rosa

I think that's Saunders the Australian (God, I make him sound like a hitman.)

To be fair to him (and me), I think we would say we are not "teaching" our children foreign languages, any more than their mothers are "teaching" them English; we are bringing them up in bilingual households, even though we are not ourselves native speakers.

Hmm, could have been. I thought he was American but the name Saunders does ring a bell.

Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread, my comments weren't directed at you in particular.

I don't think there's anything wrong with it or that it's harmful in anyway, I just personally would feel a bit pretentious doing it. Horses for courses though.

No, no, nothing taken personally - I just wanted to make that point.

There is, incidentally, an American novelist of the same name.

Very justifiable and nice when you live in the country to speak to your kids in the local language - by all means encourage them to embrace the experience of it. Good for you too.

Would be a shame if they missed out on learning a foreign language if they had the relevant cultural heritage - think I would have resented that!! Would love to be fluent in a language now, never got past the dreaded "advanced intermediate" stage in French and a slavonic language which I have now largely forgotten. So, also a good reason to speak the language to them exclusively even when you don't live in the country where it is normally spoken (i.e. French iin the UK.)

But no link to the culture, don't live in the country...speaking exclusively in the language when you're of an uncertain standard. Eccentric more than pretentious.

But then DD has been to French lessons since preschool (they had a class)and we are considered pretentious, accused of harming her language skills and putting pressure on her (we're talking about colours and songs here) and the school where DD goes very unreceptive to an after school activity in the language.

Definitely pretentious if this is some sort of 'shop front' situation where as soon as they're out of earshot of any other Alpha Mummies/Daddies on the run it's back to bellowing in English.

teafortwo we Irish are all just really smart! No, seriously, I can't comment on England, but an awful lot of kids with very working class backgrounds in Ireland go to university. Many working class parents there have the same views on the importance of education as middle class parents, but are very very proud if their children go to university rather than just expecting it ISWIM. I was always hearing about how good our schools are in Northern Ireland when I was at school. I went to a really good comprehensive school and my French and German teachers were excellent. In fact all my teachers were pretty great.

elbows the rest out of her way as she rushes to Ireland....

The weather's crap though ZZZ...

You'd need your wellies over here at the mo.

Schools aren't too bad in the republic of ireland either pispirispis , though traditionally most students down here are filled up to capacity with Irish, and have little room for a second European language, more's the pity.

I agree, the pillow is the best way to learn a language

I agree with the author of the topic. Dora

eh? old thread folks