parents who speak French to their tots who aren't actually French

[becstarlitsea]

pretentious, non?

I've got a friend and an acquaintance who do this. I excuse my friend on the basis that although she isn't French, her grandmother was, and my friend does speak very good French. I still think it's a bit teensy bit barmy, especially as both of her kids are so far behind in their speech development for their age (in either language) but each to their own, and no doubt they'll catch up later...

But then the acquaintance doesn't actually speak very good French - it's just about post-A-level standard. But she insists in speaking French to her kids who are all under 6. None of the kids can talk at all in either language - not un mot.

Bourgeois pushy parenting or a sensible addition to their children's cultural life? (Must admit my DSs cultural life consists of Diego and Dora marathons when I've got flu)

When I speak French I don't have a trace of an accent according to native speakers. I started learning at school aged 7, did a combined honours degree (French & History) and lived in France for a year. My vocab is really rusty now, although my accent is still okay. I'm just a good mimic - always drafted in by friends for prank phonecalls... I think this has more to do with my Dad teaching me all the voices off 'The Goon Show' than any educational activities! Dad certainly never spoke French to me (although when I was 23 I found out that he was native-standard speaker - drat him for always being cleverer than me!)

It's not a question of judging. It's a question of doing damage to their linguistic acquisition.

Rhubarb I'm only being Miss Judgeypants, which I freely if slightly abashedly admit I am, because I got judged first for NOT doing it, which put my back up.

madamearcarti "I think you can only make sounds you have heard before the age of 1"

Not true

Plenty of people become bilingual later in life and sound like native speakers (like me)

I think there's three whole separate categories of people we're talking about here

Bilingual families - if a child grows up hearing two separate languages, spoken by natives, then they'll learn both fine and switch between them fine. They'll learn all the sounds which go with both.

People who speak a bit of another language to their children to give them some familiarity, or keep up with what they've learned in the past - again, I don't see any problem with that, and wouldn't think anyone was odd or pretentious for doing it.

But becstars friend is only speaking to her DC in a foreign language she is not fluent in - so the DC are not hearing the full range of French sounds, and also not hearing any language spoken fluently by their main carer. Which can't possibly be helping them to learn English or French or pick up transferable language skills of any kind!

Look she was being awful suggesting you didn't want the best for your son

however I don't think the language efforts she is making are necessarily relevant to that.

Plenty of people do similar and in a nice unassuming way without acting superior about it. She's just being weird and I'd probably not be that friendly with someone who spoke to me like that.

To judge her on her sloppy agreements etc etc just makes you sound very snobby. You are probably much better at French than she is but it's not the point - she was rude to you by evangelising/commenting about your laxity in not teaching ds French. That's what this is about isn't it.

Can I add a new category into the mix? Don't know what I think of this one, but I've come across it a few times...

Parents who send their children to a nursery full time (8am to 6pm) where only French/Spanish/Swahili or whatever is spoken, but where the parents themselves do not speak that language at all.

I've been all when people tell me they are doing that. I remain . I don't actually know what I think of it. Tell me what to think of it.

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If she was rude to you, that is a different matter. But this thread comes across as a judgement on ALL parents who speak to their children in French.

I don't have the greatest of French accents, I speak French like a Northerner, but dd had a beautiful accent and whilst in France many people thought she was French. I speak to her in French now to keep up with my own language skills and to encourage her to practice hers.

But if you overheard me in the supermarket asking dd to "prendre moi les carrotes" you would probably think me pretentious.

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pitchounette I know that a child being 'behind' isn't necessarily because of them being bilingual. But if a child is very late talking already is it a good idea to be pushing them to learn an extra language which neither parent can speak properly either? I am not talking about bilingual children here - their parents aren't bilingual, they are all English, speak English as a mother tongue, and live in England with no intention of moving abroad at any time.

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Rhubarb - I wouldn't think you were pretentious if you said 'prendre moi les carottes' in France! And if I didn't know you and overheard you in the supermarket in England I'd assume that the child you were speaking to was French, so still not pretentious. I'd only think you were pretentious if you told me 'Well, we only speak French to little Fenella because it does give them such an advantage in life doesn't it? Your poor DS not having that advantage... Ooh la la, Fenella, viens v-warr less beaux fleurs' At that point, I put on my judgey-pants...

My friend only speaks French to her children (she's English). Her kids (both under 4) frankly look confused at toddler groups when kids talk to them in English.

Don't get it. My french friend said her accent is awful too!

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Only if the French teacher pisses you off the way this woman pissed me off. Then certainly they should, and you should come on MN and castigate her publicly

Bec - I know of a couple of families whose children attend bilingual French-Breton schools from age 3 despite their (French) parents speak no Breton at all.

Breton itself isn't going to get them much further in life. But these children are learning a skill and a lot of brain gymnastics which almost certainly will help with the remainder of their education, whether or not they keep up the Breton. Their language-learning faculties are opened up very early in a way that they couldn't possibly be if they don't start a 2nd language until age 8+.

Lots of monolingual families I know are awestruck by bilingualism so it's easy to see why they want to encourage it in their own children.

Talking to your children only in an language which is not your maternal language is doing your children no favours because they are not learning the deep grammar that in conferred through maternal language exposure.

Practicing French with them is a different matter. Our mother spoke French with us once we had started learning at school, and out of her five children three went on the study French at degree level.

We also speak French between ourselves from time to time, usually for comic effect.

Seriously though, French classes are a different thing than when it's the only means of communication between parent and child. If little Fenella has a nightmare and wants to tell her mum about it, and has only been spoken to in broken French, how can she hope to communicate anything complex or understand reassurance in a language that her mum doesn't properly speak?

"she insists in speaking French to her kids who are all under 6. None of the kids can talk at all in either language - not un mot. "
why can't they talk?? how old are they? as you say under 6, i assume one is 4 or 5 - is she not VERY worried by now, if they're not speaking a word in either language?

no one else seems to have picked up on this, so am i missing something?

Funny thread - I am always a little surprised that some parents will go to such length as to speak a foreign language to their children to give then a head start.
Not judging at all, just wondering if I am the only lazy one here
On the point that one should only speak in their mother tongue to their LO, I will have to disagree, only because it puts me in the naughty corner:
I am French, speak fluent English, slightly accented, with some words being pronounced in a funny way (squirrel comes to mind). However, cannot be too bad: I am a uni lecturer in RL, and noone ever complained on the standard of my English.
I must say that I most often speak to DD in English (99% of the time), my DH only has little French he uses when my Ps are about or when we go to France. Otherwise, English is our default language. Only recently have I started to take DD to a French playgroup, but it costs me to speak French even there, becase all my French "automatisms" have faded away in the last 10 years of near exclusive English speaking. So basically, I am a self-confessed lazy mother. I trust that my LO will be speaking good enough English at some point, maybe slightly accented like her mum, but rather a sexy French accent than a heavy Glasgwegian twang, no ;)
As for the French, well, I'm sure she'll cope [after all, my patois may not be worth learning...]

I also wondered that StealthPolarBear, which is why i pointed out that my child's speech delay was caused by hearing problems, not by being brought up bi lingual.

I have no idea why her children especially the older one don't speak. It might be bilingualism, it might be hearing, it might be because they all have dummies in all the time (not judging that but it can be related to speech in older children I think), it might be SN, which may or may not be diagnosed - no idea. My only specific information is what she told me - she only speaks French to them because she believes that it will give them an advantage in later life. I also know that she plans to HE all three, which would be wrong for my DS but might well be right for her DCs, I dunno.

Are you sure they don't speak? Or have you just not heard them speak? Maybe they speak perfectly well at home.