parents who speak French to their tots who aren't actually French

[becstarlitsea]

pretentious, non?

I've got a friend and an acquaintance who do this. I excuse my friend on the basis that although she isn't French, her grandmother was, and my friend does speak very good French. I still think it's a bit teensy bit barmy, especially as both of her kids are so far behind in their speech development for their age (in either language) but each to their own, and no doubt they'll catch up later...

But then the acquaintance doesn't actually speak very good French - it's just about post-A-level standard. But she insists in speaking French to her kids who are all under 6. None of the kids can talk at all in either language - not un mot.

Bourgeois pushy parenting or a sensible addition to their children's cultural life? (Must admit my DSs cultural life consists of Diego and Dora marathons when I've got flu)

I don't think my speaking French to DS would have done him any good - he'd just be learning how to mangle the language as badly as I do, which I don't think would be any advantage to him... I can get by in French, but I know I don't pronounce things well. And since I don't make the right French-only sounds, then I don't see that he'd have been hearing any sounds from me that he wouldn't when I'm speaking English, since I obviously speak French only using sounds I can manage myself!

becstar, well I admit then that is clearly bizarre, and probably not good for proper language acquisition. So, she never speaks English to them?

becstarlitsea- I've done exactly that, studied daily, worked very hard at learning a new language from the first day I arrived in Belgium.

I have a very good vocabulary, grammar and spelling. But I will never been able to pronounce the words as a native flaming, the sounds are just too foreign to me, I just cannot pronounce some of the sounds. But my children can pronounce them with no problem.

It is exceptionally difficult to learn a foreign language as an adult.

Yes, I agree bec. Nowadays there seems to be lots of anxiety to teach very small children all sorts of things.
I agree a language can be learnt later in life. It probably requires more commitment, but it is doable.
(my step uncle learnt to ski at 35 yrs old and has become an excellent skier)

YANBU - I am pretentious
I picked up a few childcare-related phrases many moons ago as an au pair and they just kind of sneak out here and there. I suspect this might started because I found little French dcs so adorable and kind of wanted one of my own.
I should add that my very English ds is very adorable, despite his lack of Frenchness

It is virtually impossible to have a good accent when you don't learn a language as a very small child, but that doesn't mean you can't master a second language, I find.

belgo - does your accent get better when you have a heavy cold? Worked in Brussels for a bit and often thought I was about to be spat on...

There's no comparison between learning as a child and learning as an adult, because

1 Your brain is hardwired to optimise language acquisition differently pre-puberty, and this does most certainly get harder with age.

2 As an adult, you usually have a heck of a lot more demands on your time. So logistically it becomes harder to schedule that learning-time.

No one is saying it's impossible to learn as an adult, and that you shouldn't attempt it. In fact adult language classes abound.
But, learning a second language as a child should be hugely encouraged - why not present your children with the opportunity to learn a very enjoyable skill at the time when it's easiest (mentally and logistically) for them to acquire it?

If they're non native speakers & speaking it all the time I wonder if they also watch just french tv/dvds/ radio to have this as a language environment or do they just use the odd few phrases & words.

I have a heavy cold at the moment and virtually no-one could understand me at work last night but I virtually have no voice either

My dd spent four years of her life in Thailand and spoke virtually fluent Thai, I on the other hand was able to converse with taxi drivers. Sadly, since we moved to Switzerland she has forgotten the majority of it. Had I been able to I would have kept up the Thai language but couldn't and she isn't really interested in the news which seems all that is shown on our Thai tv channel. She is now learning german but finding it much harder despite the Thai being a tonal language.

You don't have to learn a language as a child though, just hear the sounds from time to time. We weren't taught any languages - they kept French for the 'pas devant les enfant' stuff, but Ma was a languages teacher (Russian and French) and two aunts lived in Germany. Oh, and the Italian friends that visited Granny. So we had lots of exposure to the different sounds, to the point where I can do most accents convincingly and get into trouble when I try because having memorised a useful phrase the local assumes I'll understand a long response...

Very odd!

We are both English although I speak good French (accent and vocab). We also have a succession of French APs and spend most holidays in France.

No way would I talk exclusively in French to the boys. When I speak in French to the AP (usually for "pas devant les enfants" reasons) they want to know what is being said. When we go to the Boulangerie, the boys get to say, "bonjour Madame, merci, une baguette, flute etc"

Occasionally we read a French book...they are getting plenty of exposure to (one) foreign language, and that is a positive thing.

Oh it's beyond pretentious.

I actually know someone who is taking French lessons herself just so she can speak to her mini-genius in French. Because when they were "in the Dordogne in the Summer, I couldn't believe how much he picked up. He was almost fluent by the time we came home".

FFS

My GPs were both English-born French teachers (they met studying at the Sorbonne) so they spoke alot of French to their children ,and my mother (who only did French to O level) in turn spoke a lot of French to us when we were little.

I didn't learn French at school until I was 11 and was pretty good at it.I came top of the whole year at Grammar school but I was never much good at Spanish or German ( OK at Latin)So it possibly did do me some good and certainly not any harm.

My firstborn started talking very early, but stopped when I introduced my mother tongue as well. He then waited until he was about three, when his speech suddenly improved; in both languages.

Today he speaks five languages fluently. I think it's good to introduce languages early, but surely one should be fluent in them first!

Doing it all the time would be a bit weird, but I'd be fine with talking to them in a foreign language regularly to get them used to the idea that switching between languages is normal and easy. How far you go would, of course, have to depend on your own ability (after which you can always send them to classes/play schemes if there are any in your local area).

YANBU - and I don't believe it's helpful for the development of language skills.

Being an expat I've of the view that you should only speak your mother-tongue to little ones because otherwise it's just too confusing until they're able to understand and distinguish between the languages. I know lots of bi/trilingual children and they pick the languages up effortlessly - but not when the parents are chopping and changing.

E.g., I will be raising my children in English - Glaswegian with their father - they will speak Dutch with their friends/school and the only time I will speak Dutch to them will be at for example parents evening.

Squeaver, is it really pretentious for her to do lessons too, or is it just being excited by doing something new in life, that your child will benefit from?
So someone is learning a language along with their child. Good for them! Why be miserable about it, and deem it 'pretentious'?

we have people on MN who do this as I recall so I don't want to be too scathing about it. We have a thread under bilingual families running on that. They all seem quite happy with it.

I do know for example one Russian mum who has only ever spoken English to her dc, now 7. This dc went to an American kindergarten and school and speaks English with a heavy Russian accent. The mum's English is good but definitely accented - and the dc has picked this up despite an otherwise fairly intensive American English language immersion/input. That gives me to think that it may not be too wise. Accent can be corrected over time. An adult can, with a good ear and attention to detail, acquire a near-native or native sounding accent. We are mostly just too lazy to bother with it.

However what I think could be a problem is that when the child is setting language parameters as s/he acquires one or more mother tongue(to refer back to someone's comment on Chomsky), they may be being set incorrectly if the language input they are assessing is incorrect/flawed. This is the real difficulty here. Of course if you learn incorrect language usage in a mother tongue due to flawed modelled language, you could still with grammar work and practice change it much as a dialect speaker might consciously acquire the use of standard English later in life. Nevertheless it places the dc in a different situation to a dc learning from a true native speaker via immersion where this problem should not really arise.

This has done me good - a bit of anonymous little-miss-judgey-pants-ness to get it out of my system! Must admit I was slightly peeved by acquaintance telling me that I should start speaking French to DS and 'didn't I want him to have every advantage?'

"No. 'Course I don't. He's only my PFB so sod him, you silly mare." was the response that I bit back.

DS appears to be of moderate-to-above-average brain power so far, and I'd like him to choose what he enjoys and do more of that. If he misses out on a few extra neural pathways I'm not terribly fussed, which acquaintance seemed to see as sloppy parenting.

Agree with ZZZenAgain.

MY pre-school nephew and neices are bilingual, living in the UK and having a French mother.They were a bit later learning to speak than average (but still well within the normal range ) but happily flip from one language to another now.
It is definitely very important to be exposed to a foreign language very early if you EVER want to be able to speak it with a proper accent.I think you can only make sounds you have heard before the age of 1

If your acquaintance sees it as sloppy parenting, more fool her for being so 'judgey'.
However, it doesn't change the fact that acquiring languages early is generally easier for humans, and if some parents want to take advantage of that natural ability, it's silly to label them 'pretentious'.

We spent two years in France and I didn't quite know what language to speak to my children in when out and about. Out of politeness I spoke French, but I'm sure the locals must have wondered what an English woman was doing talking to her English children in broken French.

We had a friend out there whose English is perfect and he often speaks to his kids in English, even though the whole family are French. As a result his kids understand and speak English too.

I wish I had the confidence to speak to my kids in French here. I think it would help them keep up with their French as well as helping me keep on top of mine. But judging people like the posters on this thread would make me feel very self-conscious and therefore I don't do it.

It's a shame that people cannot just be who and what they want to be without fear from a Miss JudgeyPants in the corner.