parents who speak French to their tots who aren't actually French

[becstarlitsea]

pretentious, non?

I've got a friend and an acquaintance who do this. I excuse my friend on the basis that although she isn't French, her grandmother was, and my friend does speak very good French. I still think it's a bit teensy bit barmy, especially as both of her kids are so far behind in their speech development for their age (in either language) but each to their own, and no doubt they'll catch up later...

But then the acquaintance doesn't actually speak very good French - it's just about post-A-level standard. But she insists in speaking French to her kids who are all under 6. None of the kids can talk at all in either language - not un mot.

Bourgeois pushy parenting or a sensible addition to their children's cultural life? (Must admit my DSs cultural life consists of Diego and Dora marathons when I've got flu)

Sorry, when I say, "I do this," i mean I am not a native speaker but I have what is known in the "biz" as "near native competence" (partly because "fluent" means all manner of things to different people.)

I await the community's judgement with bated breath ...

I can't see the point in talking to children in anything other than your mother tongue as the default position.

If you speak another language very well, then I would think that it's good to introduce them to it etc., etc., but speaking to them exclusively in it is just weird. And possibly detrimental.

Where I live in London, it is bang on trend for families to employ nannies of a different nationality to speak to the children in that language, even though the parents haven't got a word of it.

My ds (3.10) is bi-lingual (French DH)and he's got lots of little playmates with French or Spanish nannies. Of course, they understand beautifully, but don't tend to actually speak the language as it's not reinforced by either parent. I suppose the point is to lay a foundation for the future.

MIFLAW, I can't possibly pass judgement on whether what you have done has been beneficial or not.

But given current thinking, it is considered not a good idea (for all the deep grammar issues mentioned).

And for myself I also have in the past enjoyed near-native competence. And so understand that you do need to be immmersed on a regular basis to maintain that standard.

People who say they are fluent are often basing that on a level achieved at a certain time, but like with all skills, it does atrophy with lack of use.

It takes me a good month of language immersion before I get back into the swing of what I consider competence..

However, I do know that given the first immersion situation I found myself in was as a "jeune fille au pair" aged 15, my baby, toddler and young child appropriate French is still better than most.

So I can do baby French and Foucault French splendidly, but can often find myself tangled up badly when attempting "going about my daily business" French.

Because I have lost the habit. IYSWIM.

"And possibly detrimental."

"But given current thinking, it is considered not a good idea."

Wierd, maybe - but detrimental to what and on what basis? The current thinking of whom? I am genuinely interested to know.

I think there is a tendency to overlook the fact, too, that there IS no lack of use, precisely because (in my case at least) I am speaking the language for several hours a day, every day.

loupiots - you are describing an entirely different situation to mine. And, as I have said, not only does my daughter understand, but she is able to respond appropriately (for her age) in the language she is addressed in.

And, of course, listening to native speakers on DVD, CD and in person etc as I go about those ordinary parenting tasks with my daughter that we all do.

MILFLAW,

I think the idea is that if you speak to your child in your maternal language you are conveying completely fluent deep grammar to children, which is the foundation upon which they build language acquisition.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_structure I know this is wiki, but it sort of explains it. In order to develop good language skills in any language you need this basis.

An adult speaker of another language does not have this deep grammar, but a very good approximation of it, but while this might serve the adult speaker well, it does not give the child the bedrock deep grammar upon which to build their language acquisition.

Children who are brought up bilingually have more deep grammar to process and incorporate, and so often are a little late in developing in either language, but once it's done, they are fine.

Make sense?

Overall I feel it is not helpful to make sweeping statements on this subject. It would be ridiculous for me with my point and smile French to speak in French with my dd and a real lose if someone who spoke French proficiently to not pass this onto their child by modelling their skills and expecting their child to become (at least) proficient too.

MIFLAW - I was hoping you'd come along...

I am interested to know...

What would you say are the benefits of speaking French with your little one?.... And.... errrr.... what do you do to ensure you model to your dd good collocation, particularities such as accurate usage of masculine and feminine, accent and inclusion of new vocab?

Finding this thread slightly unreal - why would you not speak to your los in your native language. Surely we don't talk about someone's "mother tongue" for nothing? What would be the mother tongue of children whose mothers spoke to them in a language that was not their own? Completely baffling to me. My children have only ever attended a French school, we lived in Germany for four years so they also speak German, but it would never occur to me to speak to them in any language other than English - they would think I was mad. In fact they find it slightly odd when English friends try to practice their schoolboy/girl French/German on them to make them perform. "Don't they realise I can speak English mummy?"

My mum is an Italian married to an Englishman, and always spoke to us in English, due to being an academic with a research interest in the cultural-historical issues of language translation and bilingualism. My gran was a native speaker of some Italian dialect which she scorned as backward and fascist, or something along those lines. So my Italian is really quite rubbish, but at least it was for high and intellectual motives. Very sad when my gran died, though, as she gradually forgot first her English, and then her Italian, and none of us could really speak to her.

"My mum is an Italian married to an Englishman, and always spoke to us in English, due to being an academic with a research interest in the cultural-historical issues of language translation and bilingualism."

Can you explain what you mean? I am very interested in bilingualism and therefore speak to my DD in English (we are in France) to ensure she ends up bilingual.

YABU to be reverse snobby about it.
Personally I think they are barking up the wrong tree, and would be better off parking their tots in front of Bob le buildeur and Dora l'Exploratrice for 3 hours a day, but they are probably the same parents who think the tv is bad for their children.

But they are on the right lines. We have far too many languages in europe,and the british are downright embarassing the way they refuse to learn anyone else's language.
Most people I know speak at least 2 languages, many speak 3 or 4, and they dont regard that as unusual. Its the monolingual brits who are out of step.

GrendelsMum - What Bonsoir said...

ulyanka - - This is completely the opposite of what I have observed, experienced and read... tell me more! What led you to such a conclusion? What age did you teach? What was the organisation of the curriculum to result in such poor levels of achievement in language fluency?

nighbynight - Ha ha ha... true! Dora l'Exploratrice is used in France to teach French children English. When they speak Spanish in the English version they speak English in the French version. Strangely and sadly for all those little French ears the English is in a thick French accent...

Sorry teafortwo, but your first post utterly betrayed how English was not your first language.

As does your second.

That is itself is not an issue.

But it becomes an issue when you challenge professionals who are charged with educating these children.

we are non french and children attend french lessons for taught by native speakers.they love it

By the time kids start learning languages in school it's too late for them ever to be fluent - to do that you have to learn before hitting puberty.

At puberty the language acquisition centre in your brain is re-wired, and while you can still learn a language, you'll never get it fully fluent.

What you're describing sounds a bit nuts, but hey, why not? It can't do any harm, and it might turn out to really pay off.

YABabitU

Ooooooooops.... I must stop mning with a toddler on my lap....

Interestingly - when I was typing one handed and half on the job what language did you think was my first?

I have come across quite a few examples like that ulyanka and have also wondered if it at some stage levels out to a general proficiency in two of the languages and a mastery in one of the 3 equivalent to that of an educated native speaker - or not. I doubt it just sorts itself out without a dp or educator giving it serious thought tbh

LOL at teafortwo.

That's interesting, Ulyanka. Do you think that was because the children were learning and/or exposed to multiple languages?

It does seem to contradict most of what I've read about the way that bilingual children acquire and use their languages.

I thought the stats were something like more than 70% of the world's population live with two or more languages as a matter of course - so it would appear to be the norm rather than the exception?

Ah bless her, bit mad but I can relate to it:
I sing to dd every night time and have built up a repertoire of songs in 6 languages, partly thanks to a MN thread from a few years ago.

I have not shared this information with anyone in RL and this isn't about giving anyone a head start lol

I just like singing and I like learning languages.
The idea is to pass on some of my enthusiasm for such pursuits to the kids but I suspect my rendition of 'Calon Lan' will do very little for their Welsh language development!

The other night I sang her this song for the first time (a fucker to memorise but worth it).
She listened intently and went:
'That was very nice, Daddy. Good night.'
Job done.

I don't think it is to do with being exposed to multiple languages, but rather as a result of learning language from non-native speakers.