To think my sister is selfish for choosing not to breast feed?

[IHateWinter]

She hasn't even had her baby yet but has already decided that she doesn't want to try it and if she does she'll only do it for a month at most.

I've told her that breast milk is healthier and gives the baby antibodies etc, but she won't listen to me. I gave her a baby book that explains why breast is best but she won't read that either.

What else can I say? I worry about my future neice. I understand that she many not want to carry on doing it for a long time, but I really do feel that if you have a baby you have the responsibility to try and give it the best start in life. I really feel she is more concerned about what her breasts will look like than her babies needs.

I'm suprised by how strongly I feel. I find myself avoiding her in case I end up saying something upsetting. Am I being unreasonable?

Oh, and before anyone says, I AM NOT A TROLL I am a regular poster who has name changed.

Well to be pedantic - the only fact there is that human babies have been fed on human milk for a long long time, and human babies who are fed on human milk have in general survived to a reproductive age often enough for the human race as a whole to have thrived and exploded over the whole planet. So yes a pretty good sign that it's good for us. But you can't look at that and see straight away why cow's milk wouldn't do just as well for that particular job of getting us to reproductive age. After all we also wear cow's skin on our feet over our own skin and often our feet do better for having it there - so it's not completely out there to imagine that cow's milk could be harmless or even better for us than human milk.

I think it's the studies that give you the detail, and also the analyses that tell us about all the components in breastmilk that aren't in formula, and the different amounts of things in cow's milk that are also in human milk. I do think human milk for human babies is a strong argument, but mainly because of the scientific research that has told us just how tailored milk can be to a species' particular needs. Without that research, we'd just have an argument that it ought to be better for us because we're used to it (and 'if it ain't broke don't fix it', perhaps). As it is the arguments for keeping babies on breast milk wherever possible are much stronger than that.

You can't make an informed choice about formula on the basis of reading marketing material - which is what information put out for the public by formula companies is. So yes - a considered choice, but not an informed choice. And it's informed choice we're talking about here, isn't it? You can't make a properly informed choice by accessing only partial information, or distorted information.

And I think that arguing that the results of scientific research can't be referred to as 'evidence' in these issues is silly - it's just semantics. Would you say the same thing by way of challenging this statement?: "Medical evidence supports the belief that smoking is linked to higher rates of lung cancer". So why do you have a problem with "medical evidence supports the belief that artificial feeding is linked to higher rates of ill-health in infants at a population level?"

To OP, at least she has not written off the idea. Two points to make:-

First point: you don't know what is behind the reason that she has said what she has. When I was preggers I said to everyone I will give it a go but I would see how things go. I know so many people who have felt pressurised into doing it and have failed because of it and they feel awful about it and depressed that they were unable too.

IMO, the less pressure you put on yourself to get it right, the more chance you have of getting it right and also the less depressed you feel if it doesn't work out.

Secondly: I don't actually know any baby who has suffered from having formula milk. I know people who have been educated at Cambridge University (ie, not thickos) and have good immune systems and they were bottle fed from birth. Any difference that breast feeding makes will be on the margins.

Thirdly: Yes, you are right it is not your business.

"I don't actually know any baby who has suffered from having formula milk. I know people who have been educated at Cambridge University (ie, not thickos) and have good immune systems and they were bottle fed from birth. Any difference that breast feeding makes will be on the margins".

But the research never suggested that ff made children 'thick', only that it was linked to slightly lower IQ's - we're only talking about 5 or 6 points. Very signficant at a population level but unnoticable to the individual.....

And with respect - how would you know if they'd 'suffered' from having formula milk?

I know large numbers of children. Almost all appear very healthy, including those who eat a very poor diet at home.

That said, some of them are overweight, some have recurrent ear infections, a couple have recurrent urinary infections.

I know a number of children who've had bouts of gastro-enteritis, and two who have type 1 diabetes. I know many children with asthma and other respitory problems. Like the vast majority of children in the UK, only tiny fraction of these children have had more than a few weeks of exclusive breastfeeding. The thing is - none of this is very relevant as I can't know how as individuals, their health has been influenced by the way they are fed either in infancy or in later childhood. I do know though that bf is linked to lower rates of ill-health in populations, as is healthy eating.

"Any difference that breast feeding makes will be on the margins".

Maybe, maybe not. The research suggests that some children may develop diabetes from early exposure to cows milk. And the FSIDS released a statement last year linking breastfeeding to lower rates of cot death. There will be children who will be hospitalised for lack of breastfeeding - even in the UK, given the large differences in rates of respitory infections in bf and ff babies under 6 months.

The medical research simply doesn't support your view that infant feeding choices are irrelevant when it comes to a range of both serious and trivial childhood illnesses.....

sabire - semantics are very important. You can make an informed choice by reading various types of information. What you are talking about is a truly informed choice which actually would require reading all of the research and interpreting it for yourself as well as critically appraising various marketing materials put out by formula companies and looking at regulations of the industry e.t.c.

By your rules about informed choice you are not making an informed choice.

Artificial feeding includes anything other than breastmilk. That statement says nothing about formula. Also I would feel the medical evidence much better supports a link between cancer and smoking, it also describes the processes through which smoking can cause cancer which is why the Government have banned smoking in public places. The same cannot be said for formula or the Government would be justified in prohbiting general sale of formula milks. The two statements are equally loose linguistically (they stay away from making out anything is factual) but they are very similar and describe very different realities of research. Also, the same looseness of language is often not used on MN.

impfty - that's the same thing I was saying really. Human babies are meant to be fed on human milk. I was trying to express the rest of your post by saying that that fact doesn't tell anybody anything at all about formula milk.

Leave it to the parents, dont interfere. You wont be thanked for it.

Ihatewinter - you say you're concerned about your niece, but I really wouldn't worry on this score - of course you'd prefer your sister to try bf - esp as you found it diffficult and overcame it. But don't actually WORRY - my brother and dh were both adopted so were ff - both are fine in every way. My 2yo dd, however was exclusively bf - only stopped recently and she catches EVERYTHING going! I don't regret it, but its not an exact science! Baby will be fine!!!!

Thanks Minicooper. I am trying to adjust my thinking. I must say this AIBU stuff is better than therapy. Takes years to work through issues in therapy. Takes two days on Mumsnet.

No matter all the science, pro's, con's, what's in each milk etc etc

IT'S HER CHOICE AND HER CHOICE ALONE

Don't hassle or bombard her, if you had given me a breast feeding leaflet with your attitude when I was pregnant I may well have shoved it down your throat and you may have put me off breast feeding for good.

Just because you already have children, this does not make you in any way better.

BACK OFF.

FYI

Breast fed both DS's for 8 months, one has mild asthma and dyslexia and the other has neither.

Is the reason my breast milk?

NO.

Oh no they're not still at it - quoting research studies ad nauseam. Sabire your comments on the benefits of bfing go wildly, wildly beyond the measured words of Prof Kramer. Even on IQ points he quoted 3 to 4 points - a tiny percentage for any intelligent baby (as MN babies obviously are). For the rest I think you need to refer back to his (real) words. No one is denying that bfing has some benefits but the fact that you are prepared to exaggerate so much simply shows that you certainly shouldn't be the one responsible for 'informing' new parents. Leave it to the proper professionals. Why not find some new interests - there are plenty of other issues in child health and development. You are absolutely correct - nobody can escape catching swine flu simply because they were bf or ff, you are absolutely correct. But they probably can if they have the SF vaccination. There are vaccinations for many respiratory and other diseases that are far more effective than baby feeding methods - why not cultivate an interest in those, and in research into new vaccines and treatments for other diseases, if you are genuinely interested in preventing and treating them. Not everything has a bf angle. That might disappoint you but on the other hand it means that there's no need to be a one trick pony. Above all, the OP (probably doubt one of you under a different name, now I think about it) has dropped it - why don't you give your research studies a rest.

Breastfed my first for 6 months....still feeding my second who is flipping 2 now!
If Id have know that the little devil wouldnt give it up as easily as my first I wouldnt have done it either lol!

Bellissima, I get my information from NHS direct, from the Royal College of Midwives, from the Foundation for the Study of Infant Deaths, and from the WHO. If I am 'wildly exaggerating' the benefits of breastfeeding then so are they.

I'm quite happy to quote my sources, which include current stnadard issue midwifery textbooks and NHS sponsored information.

Where do you get your information on bf from, other from that one, widely misreported interview with Prof Kramer, which people like yourself have jumped on with such glee?

I know just how you feel Ihatewinter.

I didn't realise what a militant breastfeeder I was until a pregnant relative said she would probably not breastfeed her baby. I didn't say anything to her, just found myself saying "well you have to do what's best for you don't you?". Afterwards I was really annoyed that I had said that because I really don't believe that, it just came out of my mouth because I didn't want to upset her.

I just can't believe that anyone would make up their mind before giving birth that they are not really going to try breastfeeeding.

Fortunately I don't see my relative much so won't have a problem in knowing what to say to her, I'm just keeping quiet and letting her get on with it.

And to be honest, you've done your best, you can support your sister if she does try breastfeeding at the beginning, and you'll just have to let it go if she does decide to use formula. Good luck!

I was referring to the 'real' words of Prof Kramer - the words tiktok referred us to. I haven't jumped on any misreported interview with glee. Who are people like me Sabire? Who exactly? I bfd. I would obviously be somewhat disappointed if an interview with a world respected expert said that it was all for nothing. I bfd after noting the advantages in the information I sought out at the time and that given to me by health professionals - all of which was in far measured terms than a great many of the postings by you 'and people like yourself' (to quote you) have posted on here. As I said, go back and read Prof Kramer's real words - his confirmations of the advantages together with his qualifications, and then compare them with some of the claims made by 'people like yourself'. To be honest if it had been you coming round to my hospital bed with your wild claims I would have dismissed the whole bf movement as frankly barking.

I suppose 'people like me' are those who have bfd but who actually dare to mention any drawbacks or caution that its benefits should not be exaggerated. That clearly isn't allowed in your mindset or that of people like yourself and our views should be 'adjusted'. Nothing must be allowed to qualify the message in any way. No one must mention any possible 'cons' it must all be 'pros'. If they had any problems with it then that will be dismissed as unrepresentative personal experience - the only personal experience worth mentioning being that of people like yourself. To be honest it's that totalitarian and rather judgmental aspect of your message that gives me the shudders. Together with the fact that you so obviously devote quite so much of your time to reinforcing and spreading the message.

"There are vaccinations for many respiratory and other diseases that are far more effective than baby feeding methods - why not cultivate an interest in those, and in research into new vaccines and treatments for other diseases, if you are genuinely interested in preventing and treating them"

Are you serious? Breastfeeding results in a significant reduction of ill health from common childhood illnesses like otitis media, to gastro-enteritis, to breast cancer in adult women. It's free, it's safe and almost everyone can do it. But you think we should be concentrating on developing and administrating increasing numbers of vaccines instead instead? I'm all for new vaccines - if they are effective and properly tested, but why instead of breeastfeeding, instead of 'as well as'?

I repeat - I get my information from NHS Direct, the Royal College of Midwives, the RCOG, the WHO and the AAP. I'm quite happy to quote my sources.

Are you saying that all these organisations are 'wildly exaggerating' the claims made for breastfeeding?

IhateWinter I think everyone is a bit too hard on you. It seems you really do have your niece's best interests at heart IMO. A friend of mine decided not to breastfeed during her pregnancy but I never felt I could say anything to her because its such a personal topic. In the end if breastfeeding turns a mum into a nervous wreck because she doesnt want to do it, this may harm her relationship with her baby. My friend had a wonderful bond with her baby because she felt under no obligation to do something she really didnt want to do, and I think thats the most important. I, on the other hand, insisted on bf my ds, and although it is now the most beautiful thing in the world (he is 4 months) I had trouble bonding with him at first because I felt trapped. Therefore best to leave each mother to do what she feels most comfotable with. Your niece is lucky to have an aunt who really cares, I hope your sister sees that.

Is it unreasonable of 'people like me' to put some faith in the quality of information about breastfeeding from these reputable sources?

"To be honest it's that totalitarian and rather judgmental aspect of your message that gives me the shudders"

Though oddly, the most vitriolic and personal posts on this board are yours. Why do you need to get so nasty about this issue? I've not made any personal judgements about anyone's morals on this thread - unlike you!

OOps just realised there are 17 pages of messages and only read - and answered to - the first page!

in rl many mums make different choices from us.choices and actions we may disagree with.however in general good manners dictates we tolerate differences in parenting

this is such a case

up to the pg mum to chose

winter

"I've told her that breast milk is healthier and gives the baby antibodies etc, but she won't listen to me. I gave her a baby book that explains why breast is best but she won't read that either."

That's where you are going wrong. By telling her that "breast is best" you are subliminally telling her that formula is ok, just not quite as good as breastmilk. This article explains it all much better.

To answer your AIBU question, no, YANBU, the truth is, if you choose not to breastfeed, for purely cosmetic reasons like worrying about it ruining your breasts (which it doesn't, by the way, the hormones produced during pregnancy are what change your breasts, not breastfeeding, so they are going to be different even if you never breastfeed at all) then yes, that is selfish. But don't be too harsh on her. She may have other, less fickle reasons that she is not able to articulate, or she may not truly realise the differences and risks involved in not breastfeeding.

I honestly, completely and utterly believe that no mother in the world would actively choose not to breastfeed if they really understood the differences and implications. Lots of women turn to formula when they struggle with breastfeeding, generally through lack of support or information, but I don't believe any of them think "I know this stuff is junk food for babies, and is going to leave my child with a reduced immune system and at higher risk of X, Y and Z illnesses, but I don't give a shit". No. No mother ever thinks that. They are misled to believe that formula is a genuine and equal alternative to breastfeeding, or are misled to believe that they have no choice but to use it (and use it feeling guilty for failing their baby, when actually they should feel angry at the people who let them down and didn't help them resolve their breastfeeding issues). But no-one, your sister included, would choose or plan to not breastfeed if they really understood the choice they were making. So whilst it is a selfish choice, it is almost certainly an uninformed choice, so the best thing you can do is give her information if she asks for it, and support her plan to breastfeed for the first few weeks and gently encourage her not to give up by pointing out how much more convenient it is etc.

I understand why it bothers you, but that doesn't mean you can bombard her with information no matter how well intentioned you are.

yabu

its NONE of your business

i never wanted to bf for a variety of reasons.

it was my choice and my children are both fit and healthy

there are far more important things to worry about

sabire - it is not unreasonable of you to put your faith in it. It is unreasonable of you to quote it back at people as if it is proven fact as you have done here:

'Are you serious? Breastfeeding results in a significant reduction of ill health from common childhood illnesses like otitis media, to gastro-enteritis, to breast cancer in adult women.'

If you are going to offer advice you need to learn that semantics are very important and that it is not appropriate to state your own beliefs as though they are facts.

I swore blind (and went round being all smug to anyone who'd listen) that I would breastfeed exclusively for at least 6 months and that no dreadful formula would ever pass my baby's lips.

Fast forward to the reality of actually doing it umpteen times a day and I realised that just about everything to do with motherhood is much harder than you imagine it will be - including (sometimes) breastfeeding!

I felt so much shame/guilt etc for not liking it, for not being able to keep my babies weight up properly, for not being able to cope with breastfeeding him for hours and hours due to his reflux.
It really affected my bond with him in the early days and I gave up after 6 weeks ex and 12 weeks mixed feeding.

Anyway to get to my point - serve me right for being such a smug judgey pants - never again will I look down on another mother for the way she feeds/cares for her own child. Bringing up a child is bloody hard work and you muddle through it the best you can.

Your sister will be exhausted/hormonal/sore and in need of your support, not your opinions.