Am I being unreasonable .. about sleep

[TotsDaddy]

We have twins, now aged 2y10m and a little girl aged 11m.
The twins didn't sleep through the night until they were a year old, both had a 10pm and 4am feed. The 10pm feed continued untill they were over 2, I was exhausted. At the time my wife declared that she didn't believe in sleep training techniques, and there was nothing we could do except grin and bear it. It was if fact so bad, that that the constant waking damaged my eyesight ( No I'm serious, the consultant said, even before I mentioned our situation, "This sort of damage to the cornea is caused by stress and continued sudden waking")

When we had the little girl I hoped we could do better. She is now almost 1, and has been cuddled/fed to sleep on a regular basis. Again any form of sleep training has been rejected outright. She still feeds at 10pm and 5am, and for the last week has spent 2am until 4am awake while been cuddled back to sleep.

I'm told that this is all just normal and if I really asked people in private they would admit it was quite typical.

So.. am I being unreasonable about sleep?

-should have said decisions about sleep

You seem to have this fixed idea that sleep training means leaving babies to cry and cry, which is not true. Sleep training can take many guises. Whoever said in an earlier post that sleep training is more about adapting and tweaking an existing routine has put in better words what I consider to be sleep training. You might have to try many different things til you find something that works.

Earlier in this thread sleep-training seemed to be synonymous with a form of controlled crying over a period of 3-7 days. Now it seems to be morphing into something which involves whingeing or babbling (not the screaming ab-dabs that we faced at times). And now newbornnanny are you are saying it doesn't involve crying at all?

Personally, what people do is up to them.
I just know that with my first I would have loved to have known there was a different way and that it was okay for children not to be in bed at a certain time for so many hours otherwise you were doing something wrong. And some of the forms of sleep training do seem harsh to me although I accept that even they may be necessary in extreme circumstances.

Agree with Starlight about assumptions that aren't necessarily so.

Starlight I basically AGREE with everything you are saying regarding the myths!

You have a system that encompasses all of your values and it works. Other families do other things, and it still works for them. No one way is better than another, if it works it works. That's my primary assumption.

starlight - If you are OK with playing in the snow at 3 AM, sleep can't be that important for you

playing in the snow at 3am??? nah, would rather be in bed thanks. brrr. agree with cote - sleep can't be that important if people enjoy playing in the snow at 3am...

That's not what I am saying at all.

I know that what I do HELPS families that are desperate. I'm sorry if you don't agree with my reasons for doing it.

What, is this thread still going

'You have a system that encompasses all of your values and it works. Other families do other things, and it still works for them. No one way is better than another, if it works it works. That's my primary assumption'.
But Newbornnanny - it obviously doesn't work for the OP!

OK Starlight. About the supposed 'myths'. I'll try to look at what you wrote:

1. "Theirs is a child-centred household". How is it not, if in families where parents are suffering from sleep deprivation they are told that it's 'normal' and to 'just go along with it' & 'it'll eventually pass'. What is the reason this advice is given? Because the presumed needs of the child are prioritised over the parents' sleep deprivation.

2. "They don't get any sleep themsleves". COuld be true if you get a naturally OK sleeper or if you manage to sleep in the day. Not in all other cases. From my own experience, I was getting NO sleep that was restful until we sleep trained.

3. "They might be able to function on less sleep". This is very true, some people are able to function on less sleep, others on more. Why would you doubt that's true? Obviously it's not the case that all AP-ers function well on little sleep. Just that some might (which might be another reason why they don't feel the desperation others feel, leading to sleep training).

4. "They don't value all members of the house". Same as point 1 actually.

5. "They are smug in their choices". Not everyone is. Some AP-ers are lovely. Others are very very smug.

6. "Their children don't sleep through the night for years". Very true for many children who don't have a routine. Untrue for others. Certainly it's the case that children who follow Gina Ford's routine (or other similar routines) seem to sleep better, from earlier. I'm generalising, but it seems to be the case.

7. "Their children don't have any boundaries". For me there's only a problem (possibly) with boundaries such as 'parents bed versus child's bed' or 'night versus day' or 'sleep time versus awake time'. I wouldn't generalize further than that though.

8. "Their children are sleep deprived". Yes I do believe this to be the case for some children. I do believe children who sleep longer stretches get better quality sleep.

9. "They are unable to have sex". This for me is a mystery. If your child is with you most of the time (in bed, or on the sofa hanging out until midnight or so, or playing in the snow at 3 am- sorry couldn't resist the joke) WHEN do you have sex? I'm really curious.

Feierabend: why would the thread not still be going? Threads about sleep training versus AP always go on forever. It's a MN tradition . Just indulge us, we're obviously enjoying it!

I wasn't including the OP in that particular quote. They haven't found something that works for them and that's why he posted.

I wonder what some of you would advise him to do?

Newbornnanny: well they did 'advise' him, at the beginning of the thread. They told him 'it's normal' and 'to go with it'.

BTW where is the OP? We probably scared him off!

My advice would be until the OP and his wife agree on something there's little can be done but to go with it. Doing things without each other's support will only cause more issues. Feel for them though

Sorry, I have been trying to hold back but TBH (and I haven't read the WHOLE thread) I couldn't believe it when I read at the beginning that people thought it was normal for children to still have a night feed when they are over 2!

Out of everyone I know who has had children, I only know ONE person who is in a similar situation (and she is SERIOUSLY unhappy about it). I accept that all children have blips where their sleeping patterns are affected but COME ON! A night feed EVERY night for a 2 year old is surely just ridiculous.

really wants to wade in here and point out what i consider to be UTTER BLEEDING GUBBINS

steps away from the keyboard...

I have read about 3 quarters of this thread and as far as I could see the OP must of been scared off and not looked back!

Obviously there is two sides here...the pro CC and the anti CC. But does it even matter? It's like one side saying 2 + 2 is four and the other side saying 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 is 5. Surely both right, but one just takes more time than the other? As adults we don't wake for milk or to be comforted like an infant so at some point a child will learn not to wake in the night too.
Some of you chose to use CC and get to 5 quicker than those who count one by one and wait for their child to grow out of it.

ok my error, should of read 2 plus 3 is 5 not 2 plus 2 is 4...duh!