Am I being unreasonable .. about sleep

[TotsDaddy]

We have twins, now aged 2y10m and a little girl aged 11m.
The twins didn't sleep through the night until they were a year old, both had a 10pm and 4am feed. The 10pm feed continued untill they were over 2, I was exhausted. At the time my wife declared that she didn't believe in sleep training techniques, and there was nothing we could do except grin and bear it. It was if fact so bad, that that the constant waking damaged my eyesight ( No I'm serious, the consultant said, even before I mentioned our situation, "This sort of damage to the cornea is caused by stress and continued sudden waking")

When we had the little girl I hoped we could do better. She is now almost 1, and has been cuddled/fed to sleep on a regular basis. Again any form of sleep training has been rejected outright. She still feeds at 10pm and 5am, and for the last week has spent 2am until 4am awake while been cuddled back to sleep.

I'm told that this is all just normal and if I really asked people in private they would admit it was quite typical.

So.. am I being unreasonable about sleep?

Lenin, if you are happy with the situation, just carry on!

For me, when the DTs were 6mo I was desperate to get them into a bedtime routine because they would cry and fuss all evening and I would BF them constantly trying to get them to settle (only for them to wake up again 45 minutes later).

So I used sleep training to instil a 7pm bedtime. After three days they were going to sleep at 7pm and sleeping till 7am (not every night but pretty consistently). They still do now.

7pm-7am is important to me - I need the rest because they are so demanding during the day. They need the rest too or they would get cranky and whingy.

But if you have a situation that is working for you, just stick with it - no one says babies HAVE to sleep 12 hours a night, they are just saying that a lot of people find it preferabel

SM: lots of things to respond to so I will do a bit of a nutshell response:

I always go by the behaviour of the baby. If they are already showing capability of sleeping through the night with no feeds needed, but are awakening a few times for the dummy or a chat or a squawk AND will not resettle without a parent's intervention AND the parents wish the baby to learn how to soothe themselves and go back to sleep THEN I sleep train. I don't let babies cry incessantly, I do let them chat and squawk and if they do cry it is only for a short time and NOT allowed to escalate into distressed crying. Much of the time if a baby does cry they are very tired and are asleep within minutes.

As for the feeding and growth spurts (whether at 4 months,9 months, etc), if a baby is eating lots during the day and is already NOT waking at night for food, then they are ny being deprived of any calories. If a baby does need feeding again at night then of course I feed them, I don't believe in depriving food. I don't go into the process of sleep training blind, I weigh up a lot of things including feeds, daytime naps, parents wishes, babies behaviour, what would be gained, what would be lost.... I sometimes tell parents their baby just isn't ready even if THEY want them to be.

I also encourage all parents who seek my advice to FIRSTLY think about what THEY want for their child. If what they want is a thing I can help with, then I do. If all they need is some encouragement to carry on as they are, as they have a routine that works for them, I'll happily do that too. I don't storm in like a sleep training Nazi, rather I aim to make sure the needs of the baby and her family all mesh together nicely, and what I do for one family might not work for another. I use my experience of many, many babies to find a solution that causes least upset but greatest satisfaction to the family. Some families are so sleep deprived and are so out of control that they are off the spectrum and you wouldn't believe the things they admit to wanting to do, including physical harm. In these cases a week of consistent support, a solid routine change, and a break for these parents might mean the difference between their child being harmed or not. I don't rush to SS about these families because I know I can help, however I have reported some families where other circumstances have come to light during my stay. So although many of you have quite harsh views on what I do, I can assure you I don't go into it lightly and I always have the welfare of the child as my number one concern.

I do feel some of you think I am cruel or harsh or depriving the baby of attention/food/whatever. I am not. I never do anything that the baby has not ALREADY shown some capability of achieving. The only exception to this is in families where things have spiralled out of control and then the baby usually responds quickly with 3 days to the new routine, and with minimal distress, as someone else pointed out: routine led babies sleep pretty well once they are on a routine that suits THEM. And their parents are so incredibly grateful. It's hard to understand just how desperate some parents are if you are happy yourself and doing something that works for you.

Sorry to waffle on, I just am upset at some of your views of me. Judgements are quickly made here it seems.

Starlight, I'm afraid you write what you write driven by your beliefs / ideology. But you're not actually listening to what people on this thread have been saying! Of course sleep training has to do with sleep deprivation. Or at least that's a very common reason that people do it. I personally was at breaking point because of sleep deprivation- which involved (as I've written before but you've chosen to blatantly ignore my experience, and others' like mine) waking every 1-2 hours, plugging in DS's dummy, going back to sleep, & the same again & again all night. This is not sleep that can be replaced, it's simply madness to propose that this kind of pattern should be sustained. And for your information (but again, I've written this before) DS DID sleep in our bed during all those months. Little did it help! He still woke, whined for his dummy, we woke, plugged it in etc.

I'm sure there are babies who sleep perfectly fine without any sleep training, and that's of course the goal, that would be the ideal. But some don't! And some parents can cope with very little sleep. But some (like me) really cannot.

I also really resent the fact that you present 'holding down 3 jobs' or 'wanting to have an evening with DP' as presumably selfish reasons to want to sort out sleeping. The holding down 3 jobs thing I'm not going to comment on. Personally I work part-time, about 20 hours a week (all my work from home) so no 3 jobs from me. DP works part time too, also most of it from home. So you see not all sleep training parents work 3 jobs. But those who do- I'm sure they'll be very happy reading your post, you're presenting it as if every parent has a choice about going to work!!

As for the idea that wanting an evening with DP is somehow unnatural, that simply goes to show that self sacrifice is at the very top of your list of things a good parent should be doing. Not on my list, tbh. I knew DP & I were not coping due to chronic sleep deprivation. I knew with all my instincts that I had to do something about it. No fluffy half-baked theory about prehistoric times & assumed 'naturalness' is going to change my mind about the fact that each family needs to do what they feel is right for themselves, for their mental & physical health, and for their child. The idea that my family life would have been somehow more harmonious or whatever if we hadn't removed DS's dummy is preposterous. Everything- and I mean everything- in our lives changed for the better after those 3-4 days. DS's mood included.

Easier? More natural ways? Ok please enlighten me about what they might be.

Also. The idea of sleeping here & there whenever the baby sleeps is just mad to me. Basically what you're saying is that the rest of the family who probably sleeps 8 hours at night (perfectly normal sleep behaviour for adults) should mess up their biological clock & sleep 1 hour here, 2 hours there etc. Because as we all know newborns sleep short stretches, quite often. So you're suggesting that it's not the baby who should gradually learn how to sleep longer stretches. But it's the adults who should revolve around the baby's sleep schedule & follow that. Interesting idea.

Of course the even more basic question is what do people who work do? Or those who have other children? Or those who simply cannot sleep during the day?

And by the way we're not talking about newborns here (we all agree that newborns wake many times through the night & this is normal). We're talking about 9 month olds or 1 year olds or even older. Not the same thing!

But no one is talking of a tiny newborn. I don't think I've ever met anyone who expected to have a good night sleep with a newborn. But it's not unreasonable to expect things to improve when baby is older, say 9 months.
And who, even those who don't work, can catch up on sleep when the child sleeps during the day? Unless you have someone who cooks for you, shops for you, tidies up for you, entertains your older children for you, sees your friends for you (because at some point, after the first few months, an adult also needs to see some familiar faces), while you cram in a 2 hrs day nap, the 8 hrs of night sleep you missed.

Franca, we cross posted! Basically to say the same thing

ups !

whoops even

Btw, hi Franca I remember we met on another thread a while ago (something about attachment parenting again wasn't it...)

Hi Maria, yes, I def remember about you too, you are a familiar face

Starlight, no, there is nothing WRONG with the baby, but it is preferable for all concerned (including the baby) that the baby has unbroken sleep at night.

Sleep training is IMO not harmful so why wouldn't you want to do it. It is not society that makes people want their baby to sleep at night, it is practicalities. When you go back to work how are you going to get your eight hours?

When my DTs were newborns they hardly slept at night. I slept when they slept so probably got my eight hours - but I felt constantly jet-lagged. It was horrible. It was hard but I did it because that is what you do with newborns, but a 6mo and older is quite capable of going longer at night so why not make your life easier.

Your argument is it might be harmful so you don't do it, well I don't see how it can be harmful so I do do it.

I know Maria and she would have done anything to avoid sleep training, like she said she agonised over it for months. If it was just as easy as sleeping whenever you can and getting your eight hours in fits and starts then she would have done it. So don't patronise everyone by suggesting we could have avoided it, but we chose not to.

Lenin, you have to do what you are comfortable with. You are being 'swayed' because you think it sounds nice to have a baby who sleeps 7pm till 7am. That is because it IS nice, it does not make you a bad parent to want that. But it doesn't make you a bad parent to do what you are doing either. My SIL has refused to sleep train. I feel sorry for her because her DS has hardly slept more than 3hrs since he was 5mo. He is now 16mo. She is exhausted. But if that is what she wants to do, fine. But I would not swap my DTs' sleep for what she has and I don't think many people would.

"I wonder if any of your suggested strategies have involved showing the parents how to maximise their sleep without doing anything to the baby?"

But that's essentially what my strategies do. I teach parents that not every noise needs a response. That if a baby is simply awake and chatting there's no need to go to her. That it's perfectly acceptable for the parents to maximise their sleep BY actually sleeping, and allowing their baby to sometimes awaken and resettle themselves without needing their parent to do it for them.

I am generally employed to help families whose babies are either in the 4-6month age range, eating loads during the day but nothing at night, and having several playtimes etc during the night, or highly dependent on the dummy or parent in order to go back to sleep. Or more likely I am hired to help parents of older babies, 9-18 month olds who are habitually waking sometimes hourly, and whose parents are at their wits end. I agree night waking is normal and I DO NOT train babies to end these wakings. That's impossible as we as adults all wake during the night. What I do is help babies learn how to fall back asleep without help. I'm not talking about newborns to 4 month olds! If an older baby is ready hardly any training need happen, it's all about encouraging the emergent skills that are already there. And parents know their baby best, and every baby is unique. There is no one size fits all technique. I wish people wouldn't all jump on each other with the "my way is better than yours" thing. Parents all do what they feel is best at any one time, and no parent would deliberately do something harmful. If you have something in place that works for you, great! But for those that don't, let them seek help, try out things, find something that works for THEM without fear of judgement or being made to feel crappy.

There's also another thing to consider. Yes, some children (like Juuuule's children) do grow out of the night waking & end up being good sleepers. Which is great. There are however children who don't grow out of the night waking & become insomniac adults. I've met at least 2 adults like that (friends of mine) who had no sleep structure during childhood & have horrendous problems with sleeping now that they're grown up. Early habits regarding sleep have a lot to answer for when it comes to adult insomnia. Not in every case, of course.

Its exhausting and draining, isn't it?
My DD is now four, and until she was about 18months old she was a fairly good sleeper, especially between about nine months and eighteen months. At 18 months I gave up breastfeeding and my sleep problems began. Before I get pounced on, I'm not suggesting that any type of feeding leads to bad sleep, but for us, DD had a set routine until I stopped b/feeding and she found it difficult to fall asleep without that crux of feeding, as she had been until that point.
I have been sat sobbing trying to get her to sleep. I have been typing for help on mumsnet with tears streaming down my face, begging for help. I got to a very low ebb. We tried sleep training, we even considered a company who come to the house and teach you how to get the kids to fall asleep (!). We would get some sort of sleep pattern sorted, and I would be lulled into a false sense of security and after two nights of sleep, it would all go to pot again. Currently she suffers nightmares.
I have just accepted that she will eventually sleep (fall asleep without any cruxes, and sleep through). If I try not to focus on when, it makes it less stressful.
DH works away during the week, so DD tends to sleep in my bed with me during the week. She is slightly more settled when one of us is next to her.
Its not perfect, but I manage. God knows how I will manage when we have another child though!

My mum tells stories about how me and my sisters were when we were babies. She ranks my sister as a "normal" sleeping child, me as a "perfect" sleeping child (8 til 8 from birth!) and my younger sister as a "nightmare" sleeping child, who she swears didn't sleep until she was five.