Am I being unreasonable .. about sleep

[TotsDaddy]

We have twins, now aged 2y10m and a little girl aged 11m.
The twins didn't sleep through the night until they were a year old, both had a 10pm and 4am feed. The 10pm feed continued untill they were over 2, I was exhausted. At the time my wife declared that she didn't believe in sleep training techniques, and there was nothing we could do except grin and bear it. It was if fact so bad, that that the constant waking damaged my eyesight ( No I'm serious, the consultant said, even before I mentioned our situation, "This sort of damage to the cornea is caused by stress and continued sudden waking")

When we had the little girl I hoped we could do better. She is now almost 1, and has been cuddled/fed to sleep on a regular basis. Again any form of sleep training has been rejected outright. She still feeds at 10pm and 5am, and for the last week has spent 2am until 4am awake while been cuddled back to sleep.

I'm told that this is all just normal and if I really asked people in private they would admit it was quite typical.

So.. am I being unreasonable about sleep?

newnornnanny, have you read the newest edition of dr Ferber's sleep solution book?

the2nd, there were a lot of I-wouldn't-wants in that little rant of yours. I take it you do compromise in other aspects of your parenting though?

Maria, you've hit the nail on the head there. All my long term charges have had fairly established routines in place from the get go. Bedtime routines around the same time each night, and each week that went by from 10-16 weeks the parents and I jiggled things ever so slightly until baby was being put down at 7pm, fed again at 11pm, then sleeping til 4-7am with a dummy being used to resettle each time she awoke. Then at 16/17 weeks I did a week of overnights to help baby not need me to resettle her with a dummy on awakening. There was some protesting from her about this, naturally. Now at nearly 20 weeks she can resettle herself with no crying and she sleeps pretty much 7-7, still feeding at 11 and still awakening for a chat at around 5am for a half hour or so, but she doesn't cry or get upset, she chats and gurgles to herself then falls asleep til we get her at 7. This means her parents who work very long hours also get a good nights sleep, and this results in a more positive and less stressful environment which works well for this family.

If I go to a family who have been demand feeding, with an hourly waker and wailer it is a lot tougher. But if the baby is receptive to the prompts and encouragement and is allowed the chance to see if they are capable of soothing themselves, it generally works too. Babies are clever, they work stuff out pretty quickly when they realize that 3am is not playtime. Of course they'll protest about it. If the protesting is distress as opposed to ball of fury I will offer comfort. But an angry 9 month old will soon get over it, and you're only adding to the problem if you go and comfort for every single vocal emotion they can wail at you. It all boils down to what you as the parent are willing to tolerate. If you are determined to see it through, then a few nights crying is not the end of the world for your child, especially as the end result is a better sleeper. If you don't want crying involved you can take the time to jiggle the routine more slowly until the end result has been achieved. There's good and bad aspects of both approaches depending on your own individual wants and needs for your baby.

I have to agree, cote that if the sleep deprivation is causing someone to be suicidal or murderous, sleep training is probably a better option in those situations.

thenewbornnannny - just because someone doesn't use cc or sleep training as described on here doesn't mean that there is no intervention at all. It isn't a case of just leaving them to their own devices. Of course, children can be encouraged to sleep in ways that fit with the family.

I read it a while back, has the new version got new stuff in? TBH I don't like a lot of books, as they serve to make parents more stressed out and anxious if their baby isn't doing what the book says. Instead I tend to rely on what has worked for the babies I have looked after. I have read nearly all the books out there and have used bits and pieces from some of them. But overall I think it's common sense that works in the end, and you can't learn that from a book.

"Of course, children can be encouraged to sleep in ways that fit with the family."

Precisely

exactly foxy-i wouldn't-not 'nobody should' as i will do what suits me/our family and as primary care giver if i don't get a decent nights kip/a half hour power nap then i would be unable to function.
my first child slept with me until dp moved in 4 years ago-she's almost 15...
when challenged on how crap she was at sleeping she always says she was lonely/cold/just wanted a cuddle so would come into my bed any time after around 3am. at the time it didn't bother me,i was single,there was enough room and i got to have my space when i went to bed and went to sleep. it wouldn't have suited me to go to bed and her be in it/be forced to go to bed when she did to enable her to sleep.

I think it's up to the parents re the same room thing. Some babies are loud sleepers and so even if the bubs is asleep, all the shuffles and grunts and snorts might mean you're kept wide awake! My general recommendation is bassinet til 3-4 months (also dependant on the size of the baby!), then crib onwards. If you have the room and inclination to have baby in your room, fine, if not here are good baby monitors that can pick up every teeny noise, also ones that have movement/heart beat sensors. So there are ways to keep a close ear and eye on your baby but not necessarily be 6 feet from them at all times if you don't want to be!

I agree that teeny newborns should pretty much be attached to someone most of the time, they need physical contact to help ease their transition into being their own wee person. As time goes on though both parent and baby might benefit from a bit of time and space especially at night. Again it's all about what you feel is right for your child and what is right for you too

Well we had DS in our room until 6 months or so. Initially in our bed, then his cot for the first part of the night & in our bed after 11 pm. Then from 6 months he was in his cot/own room from 7 to 11 pm & then in our bed from 11 pm onwards. Only after 9 months (and after the sleep training) was he in his own cot/bed all night.

"good baby monitors that can pick up every teeny noise, "

I've wondered about this. If the noise is still in your room even though the baby isn't, what is the benefit of that?

LOL Juule I wonder the same thing, but if you don't have room in your bedroom for a crib and you don't want to co-sleep, or if you simply want baby in their own room, I guess the monitors allow that kind of distance. Personally I think it's easy to become "addicted" to the monitor, always listening to see what baby is doing!!! I've worked in some houses where the baby's room is far away from the living room/kitchen (my current charge's room is 3 floors up!!!) and so a video monitor is used after she's gone to bed. Sometimes technology is a hindrance rather than a help...

As for the interrupted nights, yes I agree. Teething messes things up, as does illness, travelling, moving house, late nights, etc. Life is unpredictable and things always happen just as you think the routine is down pat. If baby is capable of reassuring themselves that all is well, and resettling (with or without help from you depending on their levels of distress) then I think the disturbances will be copeable (sp?) with IYSWIM? If you wing it and baby wings it, and there's no real plan of action or confidence in yourself on how to deal with it, maybe the disturbances are made worse than they need be? I am probably making a pigs ear of explaining it. I think teaching and encouraging a little self sufficiency in babies is healthy as long as the baby is not in distress. There's nothing wrong with a baby waking at 3am for a chat and a shout. They don't need you there to put them back to sleep, the point of sleep training is that when this happens baby learns to drop back off themselves with no intervention. It's different if the baby wakes at 3am in pain and crying, then of course you do what you need to to ease the pain and then get baby calm, comforted and resettled.

We turned the noise down on the babymonitor as we found we were waking for small mutterings when the kids were still half asleep and usually went back to sleep alone and faster than we did. Eventually we decided to just leave our bedroom door open and the baby's ajar as we didn't live in a mansion and decided it was only if the baby was actually crying that we needed to wake up.

I've enjoyed all the different views and opinions too. It's also lovely to read of parents who know what they want/don't want and that it works for them I always get called in to work with families who are a mess, and I'm employed to sort it out. I am rarely needed if all is well! I do love my job, whether I am in a long term or short term position, and I put 1000% into every family. It's a huge reward seeing my help actually be of help. But it's just as wonderful to read of parents having enough self confidence that they can do it themeselves IYSWIM?

And that's the moral of the story Leninguy

"If we were to respond to every single cry a baby made we would go insane!"

I've never left DS to cry, unless we're in a car, and I appear to be reasonably sane. I do appreciate different people suit different ways of child rearing, but I absolutely couldn't leave my son to cry for me and not respond. He's only 1. That's too small, IMO. I'd rather be tired. My every instinct tells me to attend to him, and I'd find it a damn sight more stressful to ignore him. I don't regret it - he hardly ever cries nowadays, and people always comment on how calm and happy he is. He used to wake at night because he was hungry, and I fed him. No tears then (we co-slept, so he would stir before he was really starving, and wake me up too). We get some crying in the middle of most nights now (in which he seems scared and teary, then calms, then goes back to his cot awake but reassured and goes back to sleep) but that's the only time, apart from tumbles or long car journeys. And when he cries he gets cuddled and soothed for the few minutes he seems to need. I am tired, but that's okay. Hard, but okay. It's a very short time out of a life.

He is a firstborn though, and I'm at home with him. I completely appreciate that some people just can't have their sleep broken in that way and stay sane/employed/decent parents to other kids, and that other people's instincts are probably also telling them that their kid needs something different to mine. But I don't want to alter what we do, because it's working for ds. Tiredness is a price worth paying, given he is a very contented child. Perhaps he was born to be and I've needlessly made a rod for my own back, perhaps he wasn't and the insta-response has contributed towards making him secure and calm. I've known enough people with angels and screamers in the same family, getting the same approach, to suspect that it's a lot down to temperament. My understanding is that there's research that finds that babies instantly attended to cry far less than those who aren't, but I'm sure there are probably other studies showing the reverse - certainly that's the experience of people here. So whatever suits. But I do think it's absolutely normal for kids not to sleep through before 9 or 10 months, and to have disturbed nights afterwards with reasonable regularity. And if my son has a nightmare and wants a cuddle, I'm happy to supply it.

that sounds similar to what we did actually,i'd give a big feed after her bath and then go to bed,dp would follow me upstairs around 1am having dealt with the intermittent grizzling,latch her on and ten he'd sleep with us until he had to get up-it worked for a few months and then it went pear shaped!

But there are different kind of cries, surely. There are times when DS is kind of whinging & it's clear he's just tired...and within 5-10 mins he's back to sleep on his own. If I rushed in during those times I'd not be giving him the chance to self settle.

However, there are other times that DS really is awake & upset & of course then we go in & deal with it. Yesterday for example he woke at 3.00 am, seemed (from what we could hear) wide awake. DP went in twice to cuddle him, it didn't work, he was awake & talking to himself. So around 3.30 am DP brought him to our bed & he slept with us until the morning. This kind of thing does happen from time to time. Generally, after our sleep training (which in our case involved removing his dummy) DS's sleep has improved dramatically, but that doesn't mean of course that he never wakes. It's just that he has a steady rhythm of 12 hours sleep & on & off this is disrupted, & when it is we respond promptly. It's not as if it's one or the other- always respond or never respond. It's true that these threads tend to get polarized, and it's a shame because most parents follow the way that works for them, and apart from very extreme cases of on the one hand very harsh sleep training or on the other hand extreme sleep deprivation that doesn't get resolved, all of us I suspect fall somewhere in the middle...

The other thing I want to add- in case it helps the OP & anyone else who's considering sleep training (where's the OP btw? ):

Some people tend to hear 'sleep training' & feel terrified or completely opposed to even the idea. Actually though in some cases it can be much easier than we imagine it to be. I agonized for months over the whole thing. I had become such a bore! That's all I could think of- should I take away the dummy? Should I not? In the end pure exhaustion was what made up our minds. The sleep training itself was easier than we had thought it would be. The best advice I got before we embarked on it was not to push our limits during the sleep training. Not DS's limits but OUR limits. If it felt too distressing or just 'wrong' we had decided beforehand we would stop, think things through & put it off (or not do it at all).