to think that people claiming that BNP voters aren't racists are being disingenuous?

[MrJustAbout]

I don't get the argument "that these people aren't racist, but they vote just BNP".

For me, If you vote BNP, you are a racist. I know this is guilt by association but I think it's fair. What's more, making excuses for those who choose to support these hatemongers makes it more acceptable for them to do so.

I know I wouldn't vote for a party when I didn't know their policies and if I did, I'd feel pretty ashamed that I voted without bothering to find out. To be honest, anyone who votes for the BNP and claims that didn't realise they'd just cosied up to facists needs to give up voting for good.

'There are towns in England that bear no resemblance in terms of their population by race to what they did 20 years ago. That is a fact that matters to many a BNP supporter I am sure. Does that mean they are racist or are there other possible explanations?'

Yes that means they are racist - of course it does. Because their objection is to races other than their own.

thedolly - could you set out for me the concept of an 'indigeous Briton'? What exactly is an 'indigenous Briton'?

'What exactly is an 'indigenous Briton'?
'

Somoene born here.

Althoughwhy should that be rated as above naturalised (or whatever other terms tehre are) Briton?

If someones gone out there, take a bizarre Brittishness test and genuinely wants to be ehre- perhaps they are at least as welcome as the great many people I seem to know who express their desperation to emigrate if they get a chance?

Things change....Thank god

But Peachy, TheDolly is on about a 'white' British population

Peachy I have often wondered that!Will the BNP and their ilk force the 'indigenous' who may want to leave to stay in their bid for purity?It is farcical!

VulpusinaWilfsuit,I cannot claim to know the truth of the impact of mass immigration on the UK. However, The government does have some strange systems in place which puts immigrants in a bad position in this country; those immigrants who are allowed to remain in the UK cannot get work without a passport and therefore sign on for jobseekers allowance (and therefore free NHS/and dental).
This is not enough money to pay £700 for the application for a British passport so inevitably will sit on jobseekers longterm until they can get £700 together.

Apologies if this has already been posted but just saw this on Youtube. I didn't realise that he was featured on The Cook Report back in 97. Nothing new really but I don't believe for a minute that his views have changed since then.

Oh I know what she's on about Electra, doesn't mean I ahve to p[ay it lip service though does it?

Ah, I get your meaning now peachy

Regardless of that u-tube clip his denial of the holocaust on QT was hardly a convincing one.

Well everything he said lost any meaning after the utube clip about lying to get power.

If the BNP were a genuinely good intentioned party they wouldn't have someone with his history at the help, nobody with an ounce of decency would touch the man.

Someone born here in the UK does not automatically receive citizenship. My DCs, even though their father is British, are British based on my legal immigration status at the time of their birth. Weird.

But have to say that I was impressed recently attending Children's Hospital. I was asked by a hospital administrator how long I've been resident in the country. I responded, and then asked why. Apparently, they are asking everyone about their residency, although this has offended some, mainly locals

I thought this was terrific. Clearly there are some who may not be entitled to free at the point of delivery NHS treatment (or their children), but rather than ask those with different color skin, different accents, they apply a non racist policy and ask everyone.

Makes sense to do it that way Ilove.

I know not everyone born here gets citiizenship, it seems a complex area, but its my definition of indigenous nonetheless.

There are towns that 20 years ago were predominantly 'white british' and now they are not. For the 'indigenous' populations of such towns (i.e those that were there 20 years ago) it has been I am sure quite an experience to have witnessed the change. A 'fear of change' is a real fear that means such people are less accepting of 'newcomers'. Call it ignorance, call it racism but to not acknowledge the fear is cruel and dismissive to many who have contributed positively to our society.

20 years is just enough time to have procreated a new generation who are beginning to find their voice. Enough time for some of the last generation of 20 year olds to enter middle age/middle income/middle class and enough time for the previous middle agers to be approaching their OAP status. I think it is a relevant timescale to consider.

What do you mean acknowledge it? You think credence should be given to something completely unreasonable?

I think not. What you are saying essentially is that white people in some 'towns' don't like people of different races coming to live there.

Should that be tolerated? No, no, no.

It's 'cruel' for people to made to realise that prejudices they harbour are unacceptable? I don't think so.

Furthermore you seem to be suggesting that white people who have been living in a town for 20 years are somehow superior. Not an acceptable pov to have, imo.

Oh the fear exists- it is a great part of the reason that I have movedaway from one of those towns, the freely expressed bigotry.

There isfear but to ascribe it to problems with immigrants is often an error (not always obv)- it's ignorance. My intention on moving away was to get my relevant and degree then return to combat that as best I can, but with the comments I still get from pretty much the vast majority of everyone I know outside my immediate family (not DH's sadly) actual knowledge is not welcome, they ahve asimilated a load of xenophobic bullshit and their entire communities are established in such a way that anyone showing any difference at all cannot penetrate. Where I come from, it is still the 1970's in many areas of you are gay, immigrant, black or asian, non-CHristian, disabled, or anything different from the fleeces- and asda- jeans mainstream.

I refuse to raise my children in that, we do associate with people there becuase that is home but since the boys were dx'd that sort of bias affects us and only ds2 is welcome in the social groups (I am not, not since I went to Uni, make of that what you will but funnily enough DH ahs the same after heading to Uni this year after 30 years friendship.... gaining knowledge eh? how very dare he).

Sorry bit of a rant. For years it didnt even occur to me to look about and ask where the black people and the Muslims were; Asian fri3nds would quietly decline when asked by me to come along knowing my intentions were higher than my sense...... it was moving here and living in a multicultural city that amde me ask why nobody of 2000 people invovled in a hobby I was happened to be dispalying any diversity at all that I cottoned on, in disgust.

What about people who have lived there 15 years are they less likely to be affected and therefore have less to say on teh subject?Or at 30 yrs do you get some other privileges and move up the racist-ometer?This is how silly this theory is!

VW;

thanks again for all your links....i have often thought of doing an OU course, i like the the idea of fitting education around my family. my youngest leaves primary school in 2 years and i'd like to get a job then, i have been at home with my children for too long now!

while i'm on the subject, just want to pick up on you asking about my education, it's true i haven't really had much of one, certainly don't have certificates in attick...but i'm not stupid....i know exactly what i'm doing by voting BNP...also, i have never lived on a council estate...nor have any of my family, my parents rented when they came over here, and then bought a house in Chiswick (London)...worth nearly a million quid now...we're not poor...i live in a fairly affluent suburb of London...nice house, nice car...nice everything...i'm not effected by immigration..

but it's not just about me is it...i'm sick of the liberal elite ruining this country...it's not Muslims who want to ban christmas, it's white middle class wankers in an office somewhere for fear of offending a "minority"...

well fuck all that....i've had enough.

the BNP have got politicians running scared, the political mood of this country is changing....and i'm happy about that.

VW; i will be honest with you, if i ever do get "educated"... i'll just be a BNP voter with a degree..

'It's 'cruel' for people to made to realise that prejudices they harbour are unacceptable? I don't think so'

If I dont state my beliefs in opposition, how willpeopleever know that there are other choices that can be made? I cannot force people to change but I can make them realise there are alternatives and options. I can actually be someone they know that is opposed to the BNP etc and vocal about it. makes a difference.

LG...lol..i've seen it..!

you know i think we'll be pretty close till the end..

and LG.....thank you.

'VW; i will be honest with you, if i ever do get "educated"... i'll just be a BNP voter with a degree..'

How can you possibly know that DP? My allegiances changed as I studied, albeit not from the BNP as that was never an option; the wholepoint of study is to get you to see things in new lights, if we could predict those before we began it would be pointless.

Peachy - I do agree but when it comes to racism the choice not to think that way has to start with oneself. We are all capable of racist thoughts/behaviour. Because prejudice seems to be a part of human nature, imo. That's why it's important to question why you think things, and ask yourself whether it really makes sense. My own family are racist - I can't have conversations with them about this kind of thing without them getting angry with me. They fed me a load of cr@p when I was a child but as I grew up and started to think for myself I realised they had been wrong. In the meantime, that is why laws should exist to protect people from racism.

and dp, as for this '.it's not Muslims who want to ban christmas, it's white middle class wankers in an office somewhere for fear of offending a "minority"...'

Do you know what, if I had a £1 for every time I heard this cr@p?? I wonder where the phrase started out because racists everywhere never fail to trot it out.

10 years, 15 years, 20 years - all relevant. 15000 years, not.

Peachy, I agree that in certain communities 'anyone showing any difference at all cannot penetrate'. It is the same fear that manifests itself as 'racism'. I am not sure how you help people to overcome their irrational fears.

I am sure that the BNP is not the answer but are they?

Just a comment about QT from someone who does not read a daily newspaper and is not switched on to politics - NG came across as not being afraid to be non pc at worst on QT. Sorry if this offends.

I have however spent the day reading this thread and the various links and if I were to vote - they wouldn't be getting mine.

Just when you think you are getting somewhere

thedolly - I think what was apparent to me about NG was his inability to qualify any of his policies at all. The fact he doesn't care who he offends is hardly surprising.