to think that people claiming that BNP voters aren't racists are being disingenuous?

[MrJustAbout]

I don't get the argument "that these people aren't racist, but they vote just BNP".

For me, If you vote BNP, you are a racist. I know this is guilt by association but I think it's fair. What's more, making excuses for those who choose to support these hatemongers makes it more acceptable for them to do so.

I know I wouldn't vote for a party when I didn't know their policies and if I did, I'd feel pretty ashamed that I voted without bothering to find out. To be honest, anyone who votes for the BNP and claims that didn't realise they'd just cosied up to facists needs to give up voting for good.

D'you know, even if the BNP have somehow managed some kind of spontaneous collective self-brainwashing and racism is no longer their motivation, I STILL have no respect for them. Racism is just one part of their ignorance, and perhaps it is a smokescreen that they ae making vigorous efforts to clean up their image.

I also think that the white working class of this country have been royally shafted. From taking the worst of the blitz in E London over the docks, to being the last to get it rebuilt, to then having Thatcher withdraw all democratic rights in the aboltion of planning law in 'Enterprise Zones'. And that's before you look at the sea change in our economic output away from industries which rely on skilled trades etc etc. And I think that one of the unfortunate side effects of multiculturalism was the intense focus on ethnic and cultural identity, and it's relationship to opression cast many white people as 'opressor' whilst they were at the same time a victim in the destruction of many cultural reference points. But it wasn't immigrants that did that. They were just a handy scapegoat.

The BNP don't have a credible economic policy, they have nothing to say in their seats on Europe, they don't speak in debates, they barely turn up, they don't create policy papers that feed back into party development. The whole party manifesto is merely a series of small minded inward looking deeply parochial rants. Sloganeering, led by a man who cannot explain the gaping contradictions in his statements, and who would lead a bunch of thugs to make laws based on such intellectual tenets as finding homosexuals 'creepy', for example.

Now THAT would be a betrayal of people who need much better in their politicians.

VulpusinaWilfsuit, didn't mean to ignore your question. Of course the announcement was in the local paper as all such announcements were. I'm really surprised that anyone finds it quite so shocking as all that. It wasn't supposed to be the revelation of the century just a trivial example of overenthusiasm. Good thing Georgimama was not there at the time. She might have made a scene.

I'm not shocked. I just don't believe you. You're either lying, or you read some local paper Daily Mail-esque story at the time and swallowed it without any kind of enquiry.

DP's "stance on immigration" is that it was OK for her family to come to the UK from Ireland in the 1950s, and now she's here she and her family should all be given council houses, or something, but immigration now of people with darker coloured skin is wrong and should be stopped.

That is called hypocrisy.

You sound really silly onegar, trying to have little pops at the uppity woman who doesn't hang on your every word, truly you do.

In fact, I just x posted with your "it was in the local paper" post. Thought so.

I'm struggling to follow the thread of onagar's point

Oh don't be a fuckwit onagar. Of course we're not shocked. Not at the 'announcement' because none of us believe it for a minute. We're shocked at your closet racism though.

Oh no, hang on a minute. You're another UKIP supporter, no? So, actually, no: not shocked at your closet racism at all.

oh but it's not racist, it's 'culturalist'(!)

MillyR, have to disagree with you on rascism in Burnley and Padiham, really. Know a lot of people who have moved out of Padiham, it is v rough (in places), not leafy Middle Class at all (they've gone Pendle/Ribble way). And having working in and around Burnley for a while now , can honestly say I have never encountered as much anti-asian feeling in my life as Nelson/Colne/Burnley. Openly, and in front of me, as if it is usual and to be expected. From members of staff and clients.
I have been very shocked by it tbh.

Please elaborate Lizzylou.

'but they have to celebrate Diwali and other foreign stuff...why..?

why should a school with 85% white British children have to celebrate a Hindu fesitval..? '

DP an I take that p[lease? My field as you know.

Hindu doesn't mean immigrant, many Hindu people were born here and even NG says (I know there are debates about that but we'll take it at face value for a mo) that people born here will be OK under BNP.

Right I am sure we none of us want a world where ignorance follows people down the streets, abuse and threats and all of that. The easy way to start combating hate is education. Intolerance and hate are borne ofetn of fear- fear that Islam says X (as a Christian you will know that the Bible has much violence in it also), or just the general fear of the unknown.

Celebrating Diwali, or Eid, educates. It means that young people go into a world understanding what isa round them. Even if they turn into racists let it be informed ones; ignorance is despicable, and education is stength and a future.

My kids attend a school where the only faiths taught are Biblical and I despair of it. Fortuantely I am in a position to teach them the reality of a good cross section, but I do feel sad for those who just don't have that chance.

Good RE after all isn't taught in the way some people fear- you will not be converted to a faith by a lesson on the Zakat (as a random example)system, meritous though it is. But you might go away with a fuller understanding of that faith, and be less fearful. And when some person says 'there is nothing positive in Islam' you can say 'well actually....' and that way you will learn to form your opions on fact and not rumour.

Oh and FWIW (it will matter to you,DP) my rainbow Guides celebrated St George's day with a big party and tasting session, and on Diwali we did fireowrk pictures.... it is very possible to ecuationally wide and still celebrate your own culture.

Georgimama, I see why you are confused about the newspaper thing, but in my day council decisions were always in a section in the local paper. How could it be otherwise? there were no websites and no emailed newsletters back then. (Makes me feel old)

In any case part of the point you missed was that of course no member of an ethinic minority had anything to do with that decision. 'They' didn't do it - we did. I didn't take much interest in politics back then, but thinking about it now it would be a pretty safe bet to say that every councilor was white.

So if I'm criticising white people that should make me your hero shouldn't it? As simple as that for you isn't it

there are a fair number of white hindu people actually - george harrison devotees and such like; some are on their third generation now.

onagar, do you realise you just sound like a fool now?

I cannot relate to the "they" and "we" of which you speak. Clearly not making yourself simple enough for this silly female .

I don't get off on criticising white people, per se. There is many a thread on MN on which I am the poster girl for the Tory party. I'm just not keen on prejudice or bigotry. Call me a closet liberal if you like.

Ah Zebra

techinically the Iskon types (the ons yopu mention) are the only sect that accepts white devotees, although of course there may well be singular excceptions every now and then I don't know about.

I never got to visit Iskon, was 34 weks pg and the Lexcturers panicked, but I didn't hear flattering things from those that did go.

Hinduism covers a very wide range of sects and traditionally can't be converted into, it'sto do with Indian heritage as well as faith.

iskcon

I spelled it wrong but hey its late and a non sleeping toddler is throwing plums at me, I have reasons LOL

Lizzylou, I am sure you know a lot more about it than me. I was just speculating really, but would like to know more from you. What is actually going on with voters in these areas is the point of this thread.

Blu, I thought your post was very insightful. I do think there is an issue with ethnicity being linked to oppression at the expense of economic causes of exploitation. It makes it hard to have a meaningful cultural or economic history of the working class.

Don't know why I did that anyway LOL- it was to a specific Q from DP
plenty of white Muslims too, frequently refered to in debates though

VulpusinaWilfsuit, what can I say. In my way of seeing things you are entitled to your opinion and so is Georgimama.

That's the main reason I never report rudeness.

Of course the other reason is that this means it stays there for all to see and make up their own mind

bodycolder...your post was deleted because it was a personal attack on me..

you know in the two years i've been here yours is only the 2nd post i've reported....i believe in the flow of conversation and i know how easy it is for certain threads to get a bit heated and for a few crass comments to be made..

but i find the tone of your posts very threatening...and to be honest a bit scary.....i want you to stop

i have had posts deleted in the past for attacks....and rightly so...however i have always apologised to the poster concerned, either on here or off board....i accept when i've crossed a line and i apologise...

maybe you feel there's one rule for you and one for me..?

DP... If you're genuinely thinking about an education, you can try out some of the Open University materials for free, open access on the internet. It should give you some of the confidence custy was talking about: if you can get to grips with some of these materials, you might like it.

She's right too though: best to start with something you're really interested in and do it for fun, to see if you want to study...

But if you're at all interested in politics, history, society, science, economics (anything really) the OpenLearn site is brilliant for stretching yourself...

For example (please note these materials are aimed at different levels: introductory, intermediate and advanced...)

The Holocaust

Identity in Question

Understanding Society

The politics of racial violence in Britain

Avctually DP if you doever decide you want raidng material I can lend you books on a lot of these things, incluidng a few good introductory readers on Catholicism (always easiest to start with what you know)

I always admnired USM becuase after she got into trouble on one of these threads and banned, she said shewas going to get, and read, theQur'an from the library. Excellent.

oh bloody hell VW...can't i do a degree in the history of rock music or something...?