to think that people claiming that BNP voters aren't racists are being disingenuous?

[MrJustAbout]

I don't get the argument "that these people aren't racist, but they vote just BNP".

For me, If you vote BNP, you are a racist. I know this is guilt by association but I think it's fair. What's more, making excuses for those who choose to support these hatemongers makes it more acceptable for them to do so.

I know I wouldn't vote for a party when I didn't know their policies and if I did, I'd feel pretty ashamed that I voted without bothering to find out. To be honest, anyone who votes for the BNP and claims that didn't realise they'd just cosied up to facists needs to give up voting for good.

electra the concept of what constitutes britishness or indiginous british peoples is really intresting i think - and could be a good debate

i thought bonny on QT was great 'you'll know this nick having a 2:2' i wet myself

"there was an ice ace. no one lived the ice melted and people came from....THE SOUTH....Africa"

v.funny

electra;...1 in 5 people have admitted they are considering voting BNP....maybe they should all be banned from society...

onagar; yep, people should be allowed to talk about a legal political party...i'm pleased you think that way..

VW;...i had no education really...went to a pretty crap school and left at 16 with naff all....

Benjysmum, I think the whole issue of indigenous Britishness is a bit of a red herring. The idea of genetic and/or racial indigenous people being treated as different (either to positive or negative ends) is a repulsive idea regardless of the country being referred to.

But there are indigenous cultures. I just don't think that 'Britain' as a whole has an indigenous culture. There are subcultures, but these are not related to a genetic heritage. Yorkshire culture is not about genes; Yorkshire culture is perpetuated by people of English, Irish and Asian descent.

No culture within the industrialised world can be discussed as indigenous in the way that a North American hunter-gatherer can be.

The fact that industrialised countries don't have indigenous identities is a result of globalisation, not immigration.

But only 1 in 30 would actually vote for them tomorrow DP.

Would you have a better life with more education, DP, knowing what you know now? How old are you btw?

Apparently the guy who wrote the book that NG gets his British indigenous ideas from (some Professor bloke) has accused NG of misinterpreting him to his own agenda and has came out and staunchly corrected point by point, (with scientific data) NGs misinterpretation of the book.

I shall try and find the link.....

Here

VW;...i think my life would have been completely different if i'd had a decent education.....too late for me now...wish i could say i'm only 21 or something but i was born in 1973

Good link squeezy, thanks.

you are a yer younger than me

i did evening classes with three children under three years old

i went to university with three children under five years old

there is no such thing as too late.

It absolutely isn't too late for you now. I have taught a number of people who went back to studying in their 30s or 40s. Night classes, the OU, your local WEA (heh heh, though it will be full of pinko liberals).

Qualifications open doors. And minds.

hellmouth, I actually thought Bonnie Greer's remarks were silly. People didn't come to Britain from Africa at the end of the Ice Age. It is just factually incorrect. Oppenheimer has claimed his scientific findings do not support Griffin's bizarre remarks, but neither would any scientist support Greer's remarks that Africans came North a mere 17,000 years ago. The Neanderthals were also descended from African hominids. All hominids are of African descent; her remarks were nonsensical.

It should all be totally irrelevant any way. It doesn't matter who arrived when. We should be considering cultures not race, now and in the past. Lots of cultural ideas and ways of life have always been accepted in the past. There is no evidence that the Celts ever invaded Britain; the ancient British seem to have willingly adopted Celtic Culture. All this talk of mass, often violent invasions plays into the hands of the BNP with their constant raising of fear over 'foreigners coming to our Country and taking over.'

Britain has always had lots of culture contact, and benefitted from it.

In case it's not clear what side I'm on. Well I'm on the side that says there are too many people on the planet and we are killing it. There are too many people for any society anywhere to provide for.(and don't bother to say we could organise it better because we just won't ever do that) Therefore we need to limit population growth now and aim for a slight downward trend.

Since it would be pointless to do that here if the rest of the world was going to say "Hey let's have as many as we like. There's plenty of room in the UK' I want to drastically limit immigration. I don't care what color anyone else. There just isn't room.

If you live here then you live here and have as much right as anyone. I wouldn't stand by while someone tried to throw you out. I don't care if you have been here one generation or you can trace your ancestry back to Boudica.

So I'm not voting BNP, but I don't want the subject banned because I don't want in 30 years time to be saying "I told you so"

benjysmum - I imagine those people are deluded or, more likely nuts. Note that, again they cannot defend their position on this matter. NG showed his ignorance on QT about this issue as custy says.

Agree it would make an interesting discussion, custy - lol at your summary of the 'debate' btw

Look here, you can pay for OU courses with Tesco vouchers.

You might fancy this one:

Are you interested in people and how they live their lives? Do you wonder about how society is changing, and how your life connects with the lives of other people across the world? This introductory course explores questions like these, starting with family life in the UK and ending with worldwide social movements. You?ll learn about key social science concepts, and develop your knowledge of how social scientists work ? while developing learning skills that provide a sound basis for further academic study. You?ll also develop your understanding of social issues and debates that dominate the news, in the UK and elsewhere.

Or this one:

How do individuals come to define who they are? What does it mean to be European? This interdisciplinary course examines the complex nature of identity.

What do you reckon? What could you do with a degree?

she did state neanderthol

but i bow to your knowledge - as i took Bonny at her word

MillyR, I think you have a valid point. The point I was trying to make is that many people will agree with you (and me) and yet they claim to vote for the BNP because of thier immigration policy. I don't think anyone voting for the BNP is racist (some are and some aren't), that would be no different from their thinking I should be "repatriated" but I do think they're somewhat misguided, under-informed or have failed to question exactly what it is they're voting for.

Or this one:

Empire: 1492-1975 (A326)

Explore the astonishing impact empires (British, French, Russian, Chinese and others) have had on the development of the modern world over the last five centuries.

it might be to do with confidence VW, its;s v. difficult to walk into a classroom.

so if you can organise childcare - go for something you will really enjoy - something that mighn't necessarily get you on a particular career path such as formal qualifications - but will get you to become familiar with a leaning environmnent meeting new people building confidence and trust and asking questions. art ,pottery, flower arranging, mosaics, something like that

i started with ONE gcse

Hellmouth, she mentioned that Neanderthals were the only people in Europe before 17,000 years ago, which isn't true. And modern humans came into Europe from Asia, not directly from the South as Greer said. But I doubt I could have had a sensible discussion with Nick Griffin so I don't know why I'm complaining.

Anyway, what really winds me up about the whole BNP thing is that while the chances of them running the country are tiny, their existence skews all political debate to the right. On the programme was Jack Straw, who should be in deep water over Iraq, and Warsi not being criticised for her homophobic stance. It is the existence of Griffin that makes these people look moderate.

We will get a right wing government at the next election, but we just won't realise how right wing they are, because Griffin has moved our perceptions.

right but lots of us haven't had a great formal education. You don't need a degree to question stuff!
Let's not get into ''oh poor DP, she hasn't had the right education....''
She is bright enough.

Have not read all the messages, but to the OP: those voting BNP are probably doing so for many reasons, and it would be interesting to know what they are. Unfortunately in our cosy MN liberal enclave we are unlikely to find out, because of the hysterical outbursts that drive any debate about the BNP, and because if a supporter cam on here to explain they would be driven out without anyome actaully asking them why.. To me, as a happy person ith a nice life, reasonably secure job and good income, it seems utterly bizarre to vote for thugs. BUT, who am I to judge people whose circumstances are less priviliged, and who have been deserted by the Labour party, which historicallt (ok for a hundred years) would have been expected to represent them? The hard questions need to be asked by Nu Labour, from whose disaffected supporters the BNP drw their membership. Putting Jack Straw to 'debate' with Nick Griffin is likely, if they noticed, to drive more people into the BNP fold. Those people are NOT necessarily 'racist' - therein lies the tragedy in all this - they are driven to desperate measures because NO-ONE ELSE IS LISTENING. And until the main parties wake up to that, the BNP will prosper. Sad but true.

'Electa, I'm not absolutely sure there have been no racist posts, but can you point to one or did they just 'feel racist''

Here is an example onagar;

By daftpunk on Thu 22-Oct-09 19:43:52
i want children in this country to celebrate St.Georges day..

but they have to celebrate Diwali and other foreign stuff...why..?

why should a school with 85% white British children have to celebrate a Hindu fesitval..?

The population debate is an interesting one onager. I'm sure you're aware that there are lots of perspectives on it. It does tend to be an argument put forward by right-leaning folk who are concerned about protecting their own resources, and not too bothered about sharing stuff around. As George Monbiot put it rather marvellously, 'It's no coincidence that most of those who are obsessed with population growth are post-reproductive wealthy white men: it's about the only environmental issue for which they can't be blamed.'

Agree, policywonk

i'm not blaming my lack of education on my views...plenty of very well educated fascists.....i said my life would have been different...maybe i would have had a good job or something..?.....maybe my life would have been worse...who knows..?

VW & custy....thank you for your posts...will look into it

a degree on tesco vouchers....!

sweet...