to by annoyed at this NCT antenatal group

[birthstoryvisit]

Ok, I know I'm being unreasonable, that's why I've name changed, but I need to get this off my chest.

My DS is three months' old. Yesterday, I went back to my old NCT teacher's class to give my birth story (long, epidural, ventouse, lots of stiches). A friend with a wonderful birth (waterbirth, soft lights) went too.

They were horrid to me. Did not ask me one question about my labour (I thought that they'd want to know what some of the interventions were really like). Their basic attitude was "You failed to have a natural labour. I do not need to talk to you because my labour will not be like that. I am coming to classes and will have a lovely, natural birth with maybe a bit of gas and air. You are a failure." They spent their whole time asking my friend about her ante natal yoga and whether it was the raspberry leaf tea that ensured the quick labour.

This isn't just me. The first thing my friend said when we left was "goodness, they were a bit judgy weren't they?". I get it, they're first time mums and in denial, but am I being unreasonable to hope that at least one of them has a long labour and needs an epidural?(I know I am really ). I gave up part of my weekend to try and be helpful. Grrr, won't be doing that again.

I believe knowledge is power and as soon as i found ut i was pregnant was in borders buying half of it up. dh was not suprised.

I went to two classes, both NHS and they were very different. The first was the midwives one, very factal, very school like, passing around things and making lists of thing like pain relief (i still find it funny that the first thing to do is take paracetol!)

The second was ran by the hospital i was going to be using. This was more practical, cushions ont he floor what to put in your bag. And on the partners sessin my mum came with me and said to me on the way home please don't believe everyting they told you it's not likely to be any where near as bad as they said. They were very honest and had described days of being in labour etc etc. In fact I couldn't attend the third and final session as I was on the ward having had DD, still wish i'd wheeled her down there and said hello!

Well done you for trying, you offered they, not very nicely, declined. yanbu

I did two series of NCT classes and they were excellent. Kind, sensitive teacher who dealt incredibly well with the group when the first baby to arrive in the second group was stillborn. Both groups bonded well and we socialised afterwards.

I'm sorry that you had a poor experience with your class.

In my experience, they covered interventions very well and we even 'rehearsed' a caesarean.

Epidurals are a whole different debate. Yes, of course women should have a choice about them. BUT that choice should be informed. Epidurals do have significant risks attached which aren't always explained or understood fully. And there are alternative ways to manage the pain. Don't underrate doulas.

I did NCT and NHS - mainly because NCT was evenings/weekends so DH could come. It was difficult for him to come to my NHS ones.

NCT covered interventions in much more detail than NHS and were more realistic about how many of us were likely to have interventions. Both sets however did seem to stress the "experience" aspect and how to get the birth you want. Sometimes you just can't have the birth you want and have to settle for having the baby you want and the life you want.

But worth going on the whole. If you had come to my NCT I would have quizzed you about your labour. I like to know the worst!

I have a real problem with the whole 'birth experience' thing. I wanted a straightforward, natural birth because it was HEALTHIER for me and my baby, not because I wanted a 'good experience'. Both the NCT and the RCM promote normal birth because if it's achievable it is much healthier for mum and baby than births involving interventions. That's why the whole focus of their work is trying to improve the rates of normal birth - to improve health outcomes for mother and baby. It's also worth remembering that until about 5 years ago when growing levels of obesity pushed maternal suicide down the list, depression after birth (some of it linked to terrible births) was the major cause of maternal death in the UK.

I really dislike the inference that in wanting a straightforward birth that's not scary and traumatic I'm somehow a self-indulgent 'experience hunter'.

If I'd been in that class, I wouldn't have wanted to hear about the CS out of sheer superstition. Didn't read that chapter of my birthing book for the same reason. And what happened....yep, a CS.

Weirdly pain-free though, as I never went into effective labour at all.

laugh at their innocence... they think a cd of whale music is going to numb the pain.

Thank you so much for saying that, sabire. Entirely agree.

I was one of those NCTers who was going for the full homewaterhypnobirthing no drug thing and I am afraid that I wouldn't have wanted to hear your experience either. That't partly because I didn't want anything negative about birth in my head (yes I was being a bit bonkers) and so left the NCT class when the pictures of the c section were passed round etc. That said I still would have been pleasant and grateful that you had given your time up to speak to the group. Thats just good manners but I would have expected the NCT teacher to have prepared us beforehand.
Rather luckily for me, my DH had a slightly more realistic approach and so was better prepared when I ended up in hosp days after waters breaking being induced and then c sectioned the next day. Ho hum

i didn't do NCT classes (mainly because they're so bloody expensive, and you practically have to book the class as soon as you conceive to get a place) I did the NHS ones, which covered the basics. Other than that I did a lot of reading, and got a lot of useful information here on MN I have a friend who complained about the things she wasn't told in her antenatal classes. But tbh, it's not that hard to do a bit of research yourself. She had a terrible birth experience, and I am very for her that it turned out that way. But in part, I think she could have found out basics such as don't lie on your back during labour. Other parts of her birth story are horrendous though - being told to push, exhausting herself pushing, and then they realised she wasn't even fully dilated
I know that I really hoped not to end up going down the forceps/cs route. But I didn't close my eyes to the fact that some things you just can't control.
OP YANBU to be annoyed.

I also have a whole problem with the whole birth experience thing sabire. But from the other end of the spectrum to you. I also wanted a natural birth but ended up having to have CS because of massive risks to my baby if I'd pursued the birth I'd wanted. If the NCT spent more time emphasising that you're not at fault if it doesn't work out quite like that for you, it would stop those of us who didn't have that kind of birth feeling quite so guilty about it. And don't tell me that flogging birthing outfits for 60 quid isn't promoting giving birth as an experience - that's exactly what that's about.

OP YANBU in the slightest

"they think a cd of whale music is going to numb the pain"

I don't think anyone is dumb enough to think this.

I suspect what most people try to do is put everything in place to help them feel as relaxed as possible, so they can cope with whatever happens as best they can.

People are ridiculed for wanting to try self-help techniques in labour, despite the fact that many many people do use them very effectively - and not always during easy, straightforward labours either. It's almost like they're afraid that it's hubris to want to help yourself - that if you plan for a waterbirth at home you're more likely to end up with forceps in hospital, when actually the reverse is true.

"If the NCT spent more time emphasising that you're not at fault if it doesn't work out quite like that for you, it would stop those of us who didn't have that kind of birth feeling quite so guilty about it. And don't tell me that flogging birthing outfits for 60 quid isn't promoting giving birth as an experience - that's exactly what that's about"

Oh for goodness sake - the NCT is not responsble for women feeling guilty about their birth experiences, because at no point do they infer that it's women's 'fault' if they have a c-section. In fact it's the NCT shouting about crap maternity care leading to high c-section rates more than anyone else!

And it's important that the NCT flag up the things women can do to reduce their risk of c-section, like having a doula or opting for a homebirth. Also like encouraging women to think long and hard before opting for an induction for post-dates pregnancy when there is no immediate medical concern about the baby or the mother. But emphasising these things is not the same as telling women they are at fault for having a c-section that they believe is unavoidable!

As for the birth dress - the sales arm have bog all to do with the teaching curriculum or the campaigning/research functions of the NCT, other than providing money to fund them.

Sorry, the teaching arm have no control over the sales department? Bollocks.

I didn't say that the NCT is responsible for my feeling guilty, don't be silly. But I have never heard anyone from NCT (and you're the same) acknowledge that for some women and some pregnancies, a CS or an interventionist labour is the safest way to get the baby out. That's all I would like. I'm not keen on CS either - read my posts of the subject.

Sorry sabire but you're so blinkered about the NCT it's verging on the absurd.

Op YANBU
Not going to get into the whole birth/nct debate , but in my opinion any birth which ends with a healthy mother and baby is sucessful ,so well done you

"But I have never heard anyone from NCT (and you're the same) acknowledge that for some women and some pregnancies, a CS or an interventionist labour is the safest way to get the baby out"

No - you are blinkered, because saying the NCT - the organisation itself and the individuals who work for it, don't acknowledge the necessity for c-section and medical intervention is utter, utter bollocks.

The NCT produce many books on pregnancy and birth - all of which acknowledge that for some mothers and babies c-section/medical input is the only option! Teachers have to study c-section as part of their training - have to read and understand the NICE guidelines recommendations as to when c-section should be considered as the safest option, plus familiarise themselves with the RCOG guidelines on operative birth.

Why would they not acknowledge that sometimes c-section is the only safe option, when it's undoubtedly the truth? Because they're stoopid? Or want to put women and babies in danger out of some misguided adherence to a natural birth philosophy?

And the teaching arm don't have control over what is sold in the catalogue, though teachers may raise their voices to say they aren't happy about particular products.

My NCT group was just the same

everyone wanted natural birth, noone wanted an epidural etc etc. whenever I asked about epidurals I was discouraged

fast forward 4 weeks

1 natural
1 ceaserian
4 assisted deliveries (of which 1 was very nearly a emergency ceaser)
5 very sore mamas

Its all well and good encoraging a "natural" birth but when you are dealing with (a) sloooow first time births and (b) the NHS I think the NCT are being a bit naive in encoraging first time mothers to aim for a birth which is unlikely to occur... Second time is I hear a different story...

But I am sorry you feel bad after giving up a morning for them

Oh god - why oh why are we returning to the birthing dress? If people want to give birth in an LBD, good luck to them I say. At least it won't stain

"everyone wanted natural birth, noone wanted an epidural etc etc"

Of course most women want a natural birth, in the sense they want to get through it without loads of intervention if possible! Trying to avoid epidural goes hand in hand with wanting a birth without loads of medical input!

"but when you are dealing with (a) sloooow first time births and (b) the NHS I think the NCT are being a bit naive in encoraging first time mothers to aim for a birth which is unlikely to occur"

Antenatal teachers and midwives who teach antenatal classes have one aim - to help mothers get the healthiest birth possible for them and their babies.

What sort of births do you think the NCT should be 'encouraging' mothers to aim for, if it's not healthy, normal birth?

That means they have to inform them of what they can do to reduce the risk of avoidable interventions. I don't think naivity comes into it at all. Everyone who is involved in any significant way with the NCT knows about maternity statistics - how many women have c-sections/assisted births/epidurals. They probably know more than most people, and know more about what women can do to make problems during birth less likely.

SABIRE I dont agree, I think that the NCT go on about "natural birth" to the extent that if you dont have one, you feel like a failure. Mothers that endured 8 hours of labouron mere gas and air were held up to be examplar examples. And we have the NHS involved who dont necessarily have the same agenda as the NCT. we had a mother bought in who had a natural borth and we were supposed to learn from her. FFS

At the end of the day for first time Mums its pretty muich out of your control and you have no experience to "manage" the midwifes

I wish I had a natural birth but I did not, end of

"SABIRE I dont agree, I think that the NCT go on about "natural birth" to the extent that if you dont have one, you feel like a failure".

No - not 'natural' birth. normal birth! Two different things! Yes - NCT does go on about increasing rates of normal birth - but that's because one in four women now has her baby operatively and everyone involved in maternity services believes that that is categorically a bad thing for mums and for babies. Someone needs to raise their voice against the explosion in medicalised births - to ask why it's happening and what can we do to stop it. That's the role of the NCT, and the role of the RCM.

As for this debate making women feel like 'failures' - well sorry, but if the answer to that is being complacent about the situation then I think that's not acceptable. We shouldn't be telling women that it's fine for huge swathes of healthy women to end up having c-sections and forceps/ventouse, must to make them feel better about not having a normal birth. It's no fine - it's shite, because in many cases it's avoidable.

"Mothers that endured 8 hours of labouron mere gas and air were held up to be examplar examples"

What - someone said - this person is better than you because she didn't need an epidural? Or is that what you just read into it.

"we had a mother bought in who had a natural borth and we were supposed to learn from her. FFS"

Out of three babies, I've not had one 'normal' labour myself (ie one that didn't involve synto, monitoring, forceps or the intervention of the emergency services), but I was happy to learn from other women about their coping strategies for labour. It didn't guarantee me a straightforward labour, but it still helped.

In the end this isn't a 'moral' issue - it's not about one person being stronger or better than another. It's about our health and our babies' health.

To be fair to the NCT, without their campaigning we would still be having shaves, enemas and routine episiotomies - and no doubt they got a lot of criticism for that at the time

Oh, people make this into such a black and white issue.

Yes some people need an operative or instrumental birth. The NCT acknowledges that. It's silly to claim otherwise - I've never seen the NCT say that everyone is capable of a natural, unmedicated birth.

To say that natural birth is an unrealistic aim is silly. A natural birth can be attained by most women if they want it, but the odds are stacked against them if they go into hospital.

No, whale song isn't going to give you an easy labour... but emotional state is important. Labour is all about hormones. Catecholamines (stress hormones) play a critical role - if levels are too high, labour can be inhibited and pain will be perceived as less manageable.

There is considerable evidence that an active labour, relaxation, comfortable surroundings, a sense of safety and strong support will improve your chances of attaining a natural birth if you want one - this isn't airy fairy crap, there are plenty of studies to back it up. The presence of a doula for example has repeatedly been shown to shorten labour time, reduce the perception of pain and reduce interventions.

I'm sorry if you don't have the birth you wanted. I've been there. I had a horrendous birth with my first baby and I had very high expectations for it. But I don't blame the NCT for raising my expectations. I am however grateful for how much they supported me when I had very high expectations and they all fell apart.

I've recently trained through the ICEA, not NCT but there is a paradox here for all antenatal teachers. We want to encourage pregnant women to think positively. It is really helpful to the labour process to go in with a sense of confidence and to think, 'I can do it.' That confidence really goes a long way. But at the same time, you don't want to lead to disappointment if the birth doesn't go to plan. It's a very delicate balancing game.

I advertise as 'maximising your chances' of getting the birth experience you want. Because that's all I can do. And I believe that birth experience is very important to many women. Postnatal depression, PTSD and birth trauma are realities and can ruin lives. Birth experience is a strong factor here, as is the recovery time after a difficult birth. That's why I'd like everyone to get the happiest, easiest birth they can and will try to equip them to get that.

OP, I think it's a real shame you did not feel listened to. It's a very tricky thing, bringing in a new mum to a class to share experiences - and in your case, I bet the teacher knows it did not go well. I am a breastfeeding counsellor, and I don't bring new parents in any more. I used to, but I'm afraid I don't have the juggling skills to ensure everyone's needs are met.

A new mother needs to debrief her birth in a safe place where her experience is listened to, and valued. She needs to be comfortable, and nurtured....and a roomful of pregnant first timers may not be able to ensure that. I wonder if they felt awkward because your experience, and did not know what to say? They were worried that you had had a birth that did not go to plan, and were scared any questions might upset you?

I have had occasional experiences when I did have mothers and babies in the class where the mother has had the most awful breastfeeding support, and is more or less ordering the class not to get their hopes up (not saying you were like that, BTW!). The class can be derailed by someone's experience if it's not handled well, and it is so difficult to handle well

Fair points SAB. and fair play to you for sticking in on this thread.

I can see what you mean, BUT let us not remember that only a few generations ago people were routinely dying in childbirth too, and having still births. So maybe most (some) of these interventions are necessary? I do get that epidurals lead to inability to push to ventouse to many stitches. But in the 20th century why should women (esp first time mothers) have to spend 12 hours in screaming agony if they dont have to?

I think we need to srike a balance really. I just get angry that the prevlalant attitude in some NCT/midfwife threads seems to be that people who have the pain relief and epidurals have failed, thats all.

I wish the NCT were around in the USA. 81 percent of labours are managed with Pitocin here. The caesarean rate in my city is approaching 50 percent. Almost everyone has an epidural and gives birth on their back.

The doctors run it as a commercial interest with ACOG categorically saying home birth is unsafe, no matter how much evidence is produced to the contrary, and the AAP taking funding from formula manufacturers.