to by annoyed at this NCT antenatal group

[birthstoryvisit]

Ok, I know I'm being unreasonable, that's why I've name changed, but I need to get this off my chest.

My DS is three months' old. Yesterday, I went back to my old NCT teacher's class to give my birth story (long, epidural, ventouse, lots of stiches). A friend with a wonderful birth (waterbirth, soft lights) went too.

They were horrid to me. Did not ask me one question about my labour (I thought that they'd want to know what some of the interventions were really like). Their basic attitude was "You failed to have a natural labour. I do not need to talk to you because my labour will not be like that. I am coming to classes and will have a lovely, natural birth with maybe a bit of gas and air. You are a failure." They spent their whole time asking my friend about her ante natal yoga and whether it was the raspberry leaf tea that ensured the quick labour.

This isn't just me. The first thing my friend said when we left was "goodness, they were a bit judgy weren't they?". I get it, they're first time mums and in denial, but am I being unreasonable to hope that at least one of them has a long labour and needs an epidural?(I know I am really ). I gave up part of my weekend to try and be helpful. Grrr, won't be doing that again.

Oh, and apologies to the OPs NCt teacher, as it seems she did try to salvage something.

1. you shouldnt feel bad or guilty.
2. they are assholes
3. they will give birth too and some of them will have soft lights and water, and some will hae emergency c-sections and so forth. but all of them will really really hurt. no choice. gah. some women. (them, not you)

Thanks. Don't worry, I'm not feeling bad about my labour. I did for about three days, then I thought "sod this, there are no medals for labour" and moved on.

My NCT group all laugh about how naive we were too (one nice birth- the waterbirth - others all long/section/intervention!).

Sabire, was that an NCT or NHS one ?

NCT

"However I don't see the point if they're not going to cover the whole spectrum of deliveries. What do NCT cover for the money that NHS don't ?"

You should get the truth about the real situation aka standards in your local maternity unit and have the opportunity to discuss different choices for where and how you have your baby. I have done an NHS class and I never got this. You should also get the chance to practice physical skills for birth, and to talk about

the emotional transition to parenting. Again, my NHS classes were too short and too crowded to cover these issues. The midwife deliving them had the communication skills of a mollusc, so whatever her experience in the labour room, she wasn't able to actually teach us much that was worthwhile.

It's a post-code lottery in the NHS with antenatal provision - some areas get great classes, others very little or none, or very poorly taught classes. In some hospitals the NCT do a lot of teaching for the NHS (UCL, Birmingham Women's Hospital and St Georges in Tooting for starters).

As for NCT teachers not having any experience of birth to draw on except their own - this is rubbish. For a start many of them are doulas and midwives. Alot more are user representatives on MSLC's - so are required to feed back on local women's birth experiences within the NHS. Secondly, they regularly meet with their groups and get detailed feedback about births. This is more than most midwives get - how often would a midwife sit down with a woman or sit down with a group of women and hear them talk honestly and at length about their experiences of labour and breastfeeding?

Re: my NCT group - I didn't meet with any of them as I found them a bit too organised and controlling for me. I'm a chaos merchant - one of the 'no stairgate' types. I found that I didn't have much in common with them, but that's ok for me. I didn't do the classes to meet people. Anyway, point being - you get all sorts in these groups. No one 'type' represents the NCT.

Agree totally with TwoSilverBalloons, most Mums I know joined NCT to meet other local mothers. I am still very close friends with 2 out of the 7 in our group and in touch with another 2. The others quite frankly, were very nice people who I spent a lot of time with after the birth, but were too 'hippy dippy out there' for me. I started off with a home birth (after going three weeks over in my determination to labout naturally) ended up with ARM, epidural (because frankly after 40 hours of labour at that point I was exhausted) and then ECS. People with a much more 'natural view' of childbirth didn't want to know about my labour either. Stupid because statistically 1 in 5 (or something like that) births will be by c section. YANBU I would have been pissed off in your situation too, but don't let it worry you. The teacher was wrong not to steer the conversation back to you, because ultimately at least one of those mum's to be will end up with lots of interventions and be totally unprepared for it. Birth can be savage, it's not all candles and placenta pate!
By the way for god's sake don't go in again in a couple of months to give a talk on how you weaned before 6 months and didn't use a baby led weaning approach-you'll be tarred and feathered!

sorry
labour not labout
mums not mum's
(don't know what's up with my grammar and spelling this am)

I have already apologised to the OPs NCT teacher Sabire, but would be prepared to extend my apology to any NCT teacher with a varied experience.

However, the ones I met where neither doulas nor midwives, but their only experience was their own births (so at most 2 or 3 actual experiences). Yes, they talked to other mums, but as my post made clear, very much in the context of their own limited experience.

As to how a midwife could sit down and talk to a woman about her birth experience- surely that one is easy?: they are the ones doing the early homevisits (at least around here), so they get to talk to the mothers when the memory is still fresh; some of them, like NCT teachers, run First Mums groups so they are getting the same information as the NCT leaders; and naturally they speak to second and third time mums about previous experiences during booking-in meetings.

We had far longer NHS classes than 4 (can't remember but there must have been at least 10). This is not a particularly affluent area, the ones who could pay for NCT were the more middle-class types.

But you are right- it's a postcode lottery.

I come from a middleclass but would never pay for them, they seem quite expensive when i can go to the free NHS classes, the midwife running our ones was very good she had about 30 years experience and did prepare you for the ins and outs of birth, though was anti elective c section unless its an emergency of course.

Actually, I think much, much more time should go into what to expect after the baby is born (i.e. it should be more than mentioned). But that's a different thread ....

They are focusing on the positive, if something goes wrong there is no benefit to being prepared because you don't get a choice in the matter so you don't really need to know. All reading about emergency situations does is wind you up.

Women seem to like to talk about their war stories which is fine with other women who've come out the other side.

If they were judging you, then they were being pretty foolish, as if they were all first timers, then they haven't actually given birth yet and don't know how they are going to cope!

However, it may just be that they are focusing on the positives. The majority of pregnancies and labours are straightforward, and don't need intervention for medical reasons, and tbh an NCT class is statistically likely to include more women who want a natural birth. There is a big focus on relaxation, breathing, natural pain relief etc. Of course, not everyone's birth works out like that, but I'm just saying that if you are very pro-natural birth, you're more likely to go to NCT. I went for my first baby, and found the focus on natural birth great - because my pregnancy was textbook, and there was no medical need for epidural or other invasive procedures. If I'd been more inclined towards a medicalised birth, and wanted to be in hopsital, and wanted an epidural, then I would have saved my money and not gone to NCT - I'd have just gone to the NHS classes. It's horses for courses I think.

My guess is that these women asked more about the other woman's natural birth, because statistically they are most likely medically to be able to have a natural birth, and this is what they're hoping for. Of course, they may have a medical emergency in labour and end up needing intervention, but it's a bit mean to wish that on them!

From my own experience of NCT, it's fabulous at what it does, but it does focus on natural methods, and I don't see why it should apologise for that. My classes covered things like Csection etc but the majority of time was spent on how to labour as naturally as possible. I just think as long as women know what they're buying into, why is it a problem

Violet - I wanted a natural birth (apologies if I have misunderstood, but it sounds from your post a bit as if you have assumed I didn't. In fact, I was really hoping for a waterbirth if possible). So did almost every mum I know, and almost all of them did NCT. I would say that, for one reason or another, only about 25% of people got that natural birth. I realise 50 or so mums is a small sample, but that's my experience.

I have no issue with a focus on natural birth, but it seemed very much a missed opportunity for me to have someone along who had a complicated time (they knew this in advance) and then not ask questions.

Milly - you are entitled to your view, but I totally disagree. Learning about Syntocin in advance was massively important to me, because it helped me make an educated decision on how long to leave it before agreeing to it, and whether to ask for an epidural alongside. I did really need to know that stuff in advance, because I couldn't have processed it at the time.

You should have shown them your stiches. That is why I never went to NCT cos the figures for blissed pain free births non/intervention are pretty low. I was not alllowed an epidural coz they persuaded me that there was more chance of venyous/forceps tear. Thes were th 2 Mwifes on duty the night DS was born. I may as well have ripped up crefully prepared birth plan. Its not worth the paper it is written on. Guess what on gas and air (all the biches would allow) I had ventouse, painful delivery and massive tear and now have prolapses womb. sneezing and coughing reduce me to 90 year old lady status. I now need this fixed. DH says he was traumatised by watching it and fortunately does not want another child. Phew big releif there then so much loved gorgeus son has no siblings. You can see my stches/scars if you like I will send a pic to your NCT mothers living in lala land. They need a dose of reality, and why did the teacher not give more encouragement coz she is in on the whole tooyh fairy godshie conspiracy. BIRTH IS PAINFUL END OF we need better pain relief

"helped me make an educated decision on how long to leave it before agreeing to it, and whether to ask for an epidural alongside."

With the greatest of respect and I'm glad they made you feel involved because is what is meant to happen, but really truthfully those aren't your decisions to make. The medical professionals have the final say and the accountability not somebody who's read a book.
Read about the scenarios by all means but do other women need somebody with the pain and panic still fresh in their minds recalling the horror, no they do not.
I can see how it would be benefical for you but not those who have not yet experienced labour and birth.

Milly I think there is a benifit (for many people) in being prepared for the possibility of complications, so that you do not either blame yourself, or blame others if things do not go to "plan".

I think that there is an illusion of control in thinking that if you just do the right kind of breathing etc, that you will have the kind of birth you want

Milly - I don't want to really get dragged into this, and as I said you are entitled to your view, so I'm just going to do this one post and move on, but yes, some of it was my decision.

I was told I could have sytocin straight away or leave it another two to four hours and reassess. I made the decision about that.

I was told I could have an epidural before the drip or see how I went. I made the decision about that.

The big live or death stuff I agree you don't really have a say in (although obviously they always need consent), but the details you most definitely do. It was important to me that I understood that stuff in advance to make a decision on how to handle it. As I said, 48 hours into labour, I couldn't have processed the information if it was all new.

Also, I wasn't "recalling the horror." The group were asked whether they would like to hear some birth stories. They were offered the opportunity of which they'd like to hear and chose both. They knew in advance that mine was not totally straightforward and had told the teacher that they wanted to hear it.

birthstoryvisit - 25% only ending up with a natural birth is a very small percentage - statistically the odds of being able to have a natural birth without intervention are much higher than this. It sounds like the 75% in your sample who didn't end up with a natural birth either included an unusual amount of women who had complications arise during pregnancy or labour, or a particularly large amount who didn't have complications but opted during labour for epidural which then increases the likelihood of further intervention. Speaking strictly in terms of medical need, 75% of women needing intervention is way over the average! But I can see that as that was your experience, then it's probably influenced your view of things. If the statistics had been the other way around, and 75% of the people you know had had natural deliveries, then you would no doubt view that as 'the norm'.

My point was simply that an NCT class is more likely to consist of women who are very pro-natural birth than if you were to just take a cross section of the population randomly.

Some women really don't have such strong feelings. I'm not suggesting people want to have a birth with lots of interventions, just that some women are more open to it - given the choice between a natural birth and one with heavy duty pain relief, they'll opt for the latter. Not because of medical need but because that's what they want. That's not judging, just stating facts. I just feel that in an NCT group you are more likely to encounter women who are very pro- natural methods.

As I said, I think anyone who judges before having given birth themself is foolish, because nothing prepares you for that level of pain - I found the NCT teaching on relxation and breathing very helpful, and it definitely was a big factor in helping me achieve a natural delivery - but I was still astounded by it all! However, I think these women were probably focused on how to increase their chance of a natural birth, and that's why they were asking about the other woman's experience.

I get why they did it:

two women, one had a much harder labour than the other, they think, if I know as much as possible about the easier labour maybe then that can happen for me.

Unfortunately they are in denial.

My NCT class covered every aspect of possibilities but we never learnt how to breathe, and I only was taught by my midwife for DS2 and wished I knew for DS1 as it made all the difference in the world.

milly I take the view that it is my body and I want to be informed.

Violet - Sorry if I wasn't clear. By 'natural' birth I meant it in the 'not even an epidural' sense. I take your point on personal experience and do realise that the plural of anecdote is not data.

In terms of being able to achieve unmedicated birth, sadly I think staff shortages have a major hand in that. I was left alone but for quick checks for 12 hours (until I had the epidural). Next time,I'm scraping together the money for a doula...

harryharpie: 'That is why I never went to NCT cos the figures for blissed pain free births non/intervention are pretty low.'

You need to separate out those two things. I don't know anyone who has had a 'blissed pain free birth'. I believe a very few women genuinely have births without experiencing pain, but by god - I have yet to meet one!! The NCT does NOT teach that birth won't hurt! It's a myth. (Note that you said you didn't go to NCT so maybe you are believing what you've heard rather than the reality). My classes taught me that it would be painful, very painful, but that it is possible for most women to manage without needing heavy duty intervention.

The non-intervention thing is entirely separate from 'blissed pain free birth'. Some women need medical intervention. I needed a CSection second time around to save my baby. So I had one. I didn't need intervention first and third time, so I didn't have it. I for one am glad that the NCT helped me feel empowered to not believe I needed heavy duty intervention to give birth. Again, it's myth that most women need interventions. Most births don't. Most are straightforward. Some aren't, and thank god we have the technology to deal with that these days. And an awful lot more could be intervention free, but for all sort on non-medical reasons, end up being hugely medicalised.

Well I wish I had had a bloody epidural, if a women asks she should be given any pain releif end of story and not told to be brave and manage the natural birth as her sisters do. Violet Hill more older woman are giving birth these days and older first time mums have higher risk of complications, I was 35 it is a fact and I will furnish you with the evidence if you want.

Sorry you had such an unpleasant experience. I'm a first time mom to be (36 wks) and not to be rude to your mate but i'd switch off if someone started waffling on about tea and yoga. i'd want to know more about your experience cos if it came to it i don't think anyone would say to me in a labour ward "would you like a yoga teacher for the pain?" or "this baby's stuck, we might need some raspberry leaf tea".

Thanks for sharing your story, most people would probably want to forget all about it. Good luck with your lovely baby.

harryharpie - with all due respect, I think you are turning this into a totally different issue.

This isn't about whether women should be withheld pain relief when they request it. You wanted an epidural so you should have got one. I am all for women weighing up the pros and cons, and making an informed choice. The fact remains that many women (older mothers included) don't want to have an epidural. I was one of those. Many of us weigh up the pros and cons, and decide that unless it is a medical necessity we will try to avoid them, because of the increased risk of further interventions. And I found the NCT hugely helpful in supporting that view. It's nothing to do with 'sisterhood'!! Just about looking at the statistics, weighing up the evidende and making a personal decision. And the fact remains true that the majority of pregnancies and births really are, or could be, straightforward. That's a simple fact. Complications don't arise in MOST births, particularly when there is no inital intervention to increase the likelihood of further complications.

If my personal view had been that I wanted an epidural for pain relief, then I wouldn't have paid quite a considerable sum of dosh for NCT classes - because I would have felt the NHS classes were more likely to provide what I wanted. And you said yourself that you didn't go to NCT classes, so I don't know why you're venting your spleen against them! If you felt your birth was mismanaged, you should consider taking that up with the hospital you went to - not the NCT!