to by annoyed at this NCT antenatal group

[birthstoryvisit]

Ok, I know I'm being unreasonable, that's why I've name changed, but I need to get this off my chest.

My DS is three months' old. Yesterday, I went back to my old NCT teacher's class to give my birth story (long, epidural, ventouse, lots of stiches). A friend with a wonderful birth (waterbirth, soft lights) went too.

They were horrid to me. Did not ask me one question about my labour (I thought that they'd want to know what some of the interventions were really like). Their basic attitude was "You failed to have a natural labour. I do not need to talk to you because my labour will not be like that. I am coming to classes and will have a lovely, natural birth with maybe a bit of gas and air. You are a failure." They spent their whole time asking my friend about her ante natal yoga and whether it was the raspberry leaf tea that ensured the quick labour.

This isn't just me. The first thing my friend said when we left was "goodness, they were a bit judgy weren't they?". I get it, they're first time mums and in denial, but am I being unreasonable to hope that at least one of them has a long labour and needs an epidural?(I know I am really ). I gave up part of my weekend to try and be helpful. Grrr, won't be doing that again.

OP sorry you had a bad experience. Just wanted to re-iterate what others have said - I am sure some of them will have benefited, even if they don't realise it now. Looking back, pretty much the only useful thing I got out of all of the NCT & pre-natal yoga classes I did was hearing the story of a girl who'd had an EMCS... at least I knew when they wheeled me in on a trolley after a 28 hour labour with my baby badly in distress that (a) I wasn't the first person not to have managed on yoga alone, (b) it was perfectly normal for there to be 12 people in theatre, (c) it wouldn't stop me breastfeeding, and (d) in a few weeks there was every chance we'd be just fine. Obviously it would be lovely if everyone could have gentle water births, but I suspect that some of that class will be very glad to have heard your story when their time comes.

dilemma also - I too hope you did not have to pay after that awful experience?

It was so good of you to give up your time to go in in such early days of parenting yourself. It can be really helpful to some people to make it all more 'real'. It is a shame that the teacher did not facilitate this group a little better and use your experience to bring up dicsussion about interventions, it would have been good to weave a real life experience into this education. You should be very proud of yourself, afterall a lot of people forget, it is a safe and healthy mum and baby that counts not the birth experience that matters most.

I am a trainee NCT Antenatal Teacher and currently undergoing comperhensive training, I find it a shame that the NCT provision nationwide is not the same and that so many people on here seem to have had (or heard of) such negative experiences. I attended NCT classes which were in much nicer, smaller groups (only 12) and for longer than our NHS alternative which had over 30 women, many without partners (perhaps because of the class timings), before the birth of my first son (now 2). I did not have a 'natural' birth, he was a back to back baby, labour was 36 hours, with diamorphine, synto drip and epidural, ending in forceps/episiotomy in theatre, however I felt positive and even empowered by the amazing experience, due to a great group and a great (non-judgemental) teacher that enspired me to train. I had my second baby 4 months ago and had a shorter labour on gas and air. I am going into my training with a very open mind and with very different personal experiences. I personally am very aware about teaching interventions, and consiering 1 in 4 currently end in c-section it is hugely important that you put aside an appropriate amount of time aside to cover this as potentially in a group of 12, 3 mums and dads will have this experience.

I have also got an amazing group of friends out of my own classes which has been priceless....please people remember that nct does alot of good work and that it is a charity, run by many volunteers and passionate (very averagely paid) employees but every person is different as is EVERY mother. Please all stop the judging and stereotyping, whoever it is aimed at!

violethill, celebs I was referring to in my post. I agree that there is such a fear of litigation over somethings, it baffles me though that the NHS would want to increase the no. of cs where possible as they then have to deal with the recovery too. Although they do seem to be sending cs mothers home earlier these days.

In my own birthplan i was all for the epidural as have suffered with various pains after ops in the past and am realistic that i hate pain and can do something about it by having one. However have many friends who got to the mat ward too late for an epidural and who are still pissed off about it now .

Epidural is a choice that everyone is entitled to have but they also have to be aware that some form of intervention might be necessary as a consequence.

"Dilemma 456 you sum the whole NCT ethos up."
No, she sums up the ignorance and insensitivity of one teacher. Nothing more harryharpie.

Dilemma456 - I'm so sorry that you're special situation wasn't taken into consideration. I'm guessing that the teacher wasn't aware of it? I really can't imagine that anyone, NCT or otherwise would have been so crass otherwise. A dear friend of mine (another NCT teacher actually) was in the same situation with her 2nd, she too was successfully induced at 38wks for the same reason. I'm so glad that your number 2 - like hers - was well managed by the professionals for the best/ safest birth outcome.

They'll learn.

My goodness dilemma thats shocking treatment and totally different to how missismac on this thread might approach it. There are some NCT antenatal advisers who do give bad press, and so people think they will all be like that. My goodness with your history dilemma how can they say things like that. Waiting till the baby comes out naturally might result in a still birth, and where are they to pick up the pieces. I would not give a toss if i was induced (i was) i just want a healthy baby wriggeling about in my arms.

I'm going to bow out now. Thanks for those who've said nice things .

Just to reiterate, and I am sorry this has degenerated into the standard 'views of the NCT and views on pain relief' debate, I am not cross with the NCT or the teacher. I am irritated with a group of women who actively asked to hear my story and then were, at best, deeply dismissive of it. The teacher did what she could to interest them...

I do hope that what I said will be useful to the likely ones amongst them who don't have straightforward births, even if it didn't seem it at the time.

FWIW, my first 'intervention' was having my waters broken and probably wasn't medically necessary in the sense some people mean. But I'd been having very painful contractions every 5 minutes for 50 hours, been awake for 60 (they started in the evening) and was 2cm (and had been for 12 hours). I was delirious with lack of sleep even before you added the pain and just did not have the strength to keep going with no progress. I think that's a valid, suprisingly common, experience amongst first time mums.

Did anyone's labour actually go "as planned"?!!! Does anyone believe it will do?
I would have been grateful for anyone's first hand story. i think to give up your valuable time to tell them a story that could be of benefit is very selfless. Good on you, forget the one's that didn't listen.

And Dilemma, that is the most insensitive comment i have heard for a long time, I'm surprised you made it to the end of the session. She should not be in that position, I am horrified.

I didn't do NCT classes and have sometimes regretted it as do not have too many friends with kids same age, but listening to these stories, I am glad i didn't.

4 labours, hospital, home, home, hospital - not one went either as planned, or followed the same pattern as previous ones.

And, like labour & birth skinsl some people (OP included) have great experiences of NCT, some have, good, some have average, and a few have bad. But it's worth bearing in mind that most of our custom comes via word of mouth, and our client base is building year on year. So we must be doing something right for someone, somewhere?

For all the truth about empowering women etc- I am very glad that I was strapped to a monitor in my second labour. Because I thought everything was going fine, I would never have noticed that his heartbeat had dropped.

Thinking about it, I believe the reason my local NCT group was so into pushing the midwife-led unit (and the lovely biscuits) was that it was under threat at the time (and sadly closed down afterwards). Understandable, and good on them for fighting. But of course, every woman is going to need to think about her situation.

I must say when my NCT teacher was giving her talk about Caesareans I was thinking to myself, 'I don't really need to listen to this 'cos I'm not having one of those!'. Obviously I was in total denial and I am shocked that the rational part of my brain, or even the shit-scared part of my brain, didn't kick in and think, but just maybe...

Pregnant women often don't want to hear the negatives. It's a shame they almost 'blame' you for having a negative experience but I think it all boils down to fear. They need to believe it doesn't really hurt too much and not everyone needs stitches and it can be magical etc etc. I know from experience that even a prolonged and ultimately forceps delivery can be a wonderful experience. I still felt a bit of failure at the time though and I am sure in time they will look back and see that they were judgemental to you.

@harryharpie - just where do i say women shouldn't have freedom of choice if they want an epidural?

if you're going to get angry about something, at least make it something i have said.

I know I said I was signing off, but the penny has just dropped reading fizzpop's post and I feel I have to finish off!

They did 'blame' me in a sense for my labour. That's the vibe that I was getting. And I think I know why. As I realised, they were scared and in denial (as I think I was beforehand), but I didn't realise why that made them bordering on rude. I've just realised. They had to find a point of difference as to why it wouldn't happen to them.

I was the same as them. Same age, roughly same demographic. I am educated and I had been to the same birth preparation classes (with the same teacher no less!). They needed to convince themselves why my birth story wouldn't repeat itself and the way to do it was to focus on the yoga/aromatherapy side of things. Because, when I told them the story, I did explain that I went into it with a very positive mindset, wanting to avoid interventions, having practiced breathing, etc, etc.

Oh, and just in case someone is reading this thinking 'this sounds like my class this weekend'. You didn't ask, but I did Pilates (ok, not yoga) and I drank the raspberry leaf tea. Neither have magical properties, but good luck with your labour. I forgive you!

'Blame' seems too strong a word.

Couldn't it simply be that they were focusing on the positives?

No excuse for actual rudeness, or course, but your OP made it sound more like they just didn't really engage with your birth story, and were more focused on asking about the other woman's. Which I can see may have contributed to you feeling a little superfluous, but isn't exactly 'blaming' you!

I wanted factual information about csections and other interventions from my classes, but what I wanted the focus to be, what I was paying for, was really in depth discussion about the best way to increase the likelihood of natural birth. I wanted half an hour of relaxation and breathing techniques. That was my main aim in paying for NCT classes.

As I say, no excuses for actual rudeness, but I think sometimes the NCT comes in for unfair flak.

I agree the NCT comes in for unfair flak. I'm a fan - having joined mostly for the social aspect I was impressed at the way they covered all eventualities in my class.

But but but...

The NCT teacher did a good and sensible thing inviting the OP to speak. But having done so she should have controlled the situation a little better - challenged those people who were being ridiculous, asked them why they thought they were in a different position to the OP, etc.

Having asked her to give up her time, she should have taken better care of her, rather than let her sit there and be insulted.

Yes absolutely OP, they were trying to put distance between you and them. They were afraid and their desire for a perfect flawless birth and a fear of anything else translated into their rather dismissive treatment of you. Unfortunately some of them will have to be more realistic when it all kicks off. It seems that there is a widespread belief that anything other than a natural delivery is a failure. I am fed up with this attitude and for this reason I am unable to attend my local pregnancy yoga classes as they just put me in a bad mood. I probably won't be attempting to give birth naturally this time (my 3rd) and the last thing I want is to be made to feel inadequate by this attitude.

OP - I found my postnatal group was quite similar in their views (and they had just had babies) We told our birth stories and after mine ( 24hr labour, pethidene, g&a, epidural and then an emcs) the health visitor who was running the group said "Anyone have any positive birth stories?" My DD's birth may not have been how i had planned it but i have a healthy baby girl therefore it is one of the most 'positive' experiences of my life!

I think if anyone thinks in terms of a flawless perfect birth, they're going to be disappointed!

It damn well hurts!

I think the OP should let this go... there's no evidence anyone is blaming her! If she was happy with her experience, whats the problem?

Yes, violethill it bloody hurts. And despite not wanting and epidural, and despite knowing the disadvantages, there is no way in the world I could have coped without one. I just don't think that is acknowledged for most first time mums.

"Yes, violethill it bloody hurts. And despite not wanting and epidural, and despite knowing the disadvantages, there is no way in the world I could have coped without one. I just don't think that is acknowledged for most first time mums"

In my NCT classes epidural was described as a 'tool' for labour, which some women will need, but that most won't need if they have decent care.

I had an epidural with my first and went around saying for ages 'thank god for epidurals - I couldn't have coped without one'. Odd thing was that I had an even LONGER and more painful labour with my third, and did cope without one - basically mainly because I had brilliant care from an independent midwife and a doula. I suspect loads of women end up with epidurals because of inadequate midwifery care - not saying this was the case for you, but it was certainly the case for me.

The really major difference with my NCT classes compared to the NHS ones, was that this was acknowledged - that the way you're looked after can have a huge impact on what happens at the birth in terms of how well you cope with the pain, the way the birth itself happens, and in how you feel about it afterwards.

They never acknowledge this in NHS classes in my experience. The NCT gets the blame for giving women unrealistic expectations of having a positive experience of labour, and midwives sometimes encourage women to feel as though their expectations of a straightforward, bearable birth are silly and naive, even thought many know in their heart of hearts that the reason for many unpleasant birth experiences is inadequate midwifery care.

TBH I think the NCT gets scapegoated for the disappointment experienced by so many women, disappointment which should actually be laid at the door of NHS maternity services, who so often provide inadequate care. So much easier to suggest that the NCT is being disingenuous in encouraging us to believe that most could have straightforward births, than acknowledge the complete scandal of one in ten women having unnecessary major surgery in childbirth.

Sabire it is just my experience, but in my nhs class the mw did acknowledge that how you are looked after can have a huge impact on pain relief, she mentioned doulas and research about them, and how important it is to rest up - in that being rested can mean you can handle the pain threshold better, making sure you have adequate support, maybe 2 people, i.e. dp and a doula, and going through a birth plan and so on.

I also found she answered a lot of medical questions.

I did not go to NCT classes but I am sure that a lot of the content depends upon the individual teachers.

If birthstory got bad vibes from her taking the time to assist other people then I think that is a shame, regardless of whether the class was nhs or nct. I would have hoped those in attendance would have welcomed her perspective and that the teacher had moderated any discussion.

pinkfizzle - I have never heard anyone be told by an NHS midwife that it is a common occurence for women in labour not to receive one to one care in consultant led units in the NHS, even though this is proven to reduce c-section rates and improve outcomes generally.

I have also observed a number of NHS classes where the midwives were seriously inadequate when it came to providing unbiased, evidence based information - they simply didn't have enough knowledge of the research because they're too knackered/complacent to update themselves.

I'm a doula and have seen some shocking things on the labour ward - really cruddy, outdated practice. These same midwives then go and teach expectant parents about labour and birth - on the strength of their own bad practice. Many of these midwives are also terrible communicators with sod-all teaching skills. Seriously - however bad an NCT teacher might be, I doubt she'd be any worse than some of the midwives I've seen, and I imagine she'd be less likely to bore you into oblivion with a really badly delivered class.

Anyway, I think birthstory did acknowledge that her NCT teacher did her best to include her in the discussion.

'Yes absolutely OP, they were trying to put distance between you and them. They were afraid and their desire for a perfect flawless birth and a fear of anything else translated into their rather dismissive treatment of you.'

To go back to this point. Maybe the women were dismissive of the OP, but if the two women were to meet up with the class a few months down the line, after they'd given birth, they could have found it was the opposite response - and the woman who gave birth naturally was the one being sidelined.

The fact is, women who've had medicalised births and aren't completely accepting or happy with the experience can sometimes blame women who've had natural births.

On a fairly recent MN thread, discussing natural birth and epidural, I was actually told by another MNer that 'your birth can't have been as painful as mine because you didn't have an epidural!!' Honestly - those precise words! When I responded along the lines of, 'Well, none of us have a 'painometer' to measure and compare levels of pain, but all I can say is I reached the point where I wanted to die', the other MNer replied 'Really? Did you really feel that Violet?'!!

So I don't think this is a one sided issue at all. As someone who gave birth naturally first time, I know there are women out there who think my labour can't have been that bad!

The key thing seems to be being empowered to have the greatest chance of the birth you want. If you want a natural birth, you should be encouraged to have that wherever possible (which is most cases, medically). If you want an epidural, then you should be able to have one. Just don't slate other people for having a different experience to you!

Why is giving birth such a bloody competition

God women really are their own worst enemies sometimes.