to by annoyed at this NCT antenatal group

[birthstoryvisit]

Ok, I know I'm being unreasonable, that's why I've name changed, but I need to get this off my chest.

My DS is three months' old. Yesterday, I went back to my old NCT teacher's class to give my birth story (long, epidural, ventouse, lots of stiches). A friend with a wonderful birth (waterbirth, soft lights) went too.

They were horrid to me. Did not ask me one question about my labour (I thought that they'd want to know what some of the interventions were really like). Their basic attitude was "You failed to have a natural labour. I do not need to talk to you because my labour will not be like that. I am coming to classes and will have a lovely, natural birth with maybe a bit of gas and air. You are a failure." They spent their whole time asking my friend about her ante natal yoga and whether it was the raspberry leaf tea that ensured the quick labour.

This isn't just me. The first thing my friend said when we left was "goodness, they were a bit judgy weren't they?". I get it, they're first time mums and in denial, but am I being unreasonable to hope that at least one of them has a long labour and needs an epidural?(I know I am really ). I gave up part of my weekend to try and be helpful. Grrr, won't be doing that again.

Ern Milliemum its not about telling first time mums all the gory detail and scaring them, but to be realistic about labour and what might happen and the different invervnetions and drugs available to help, instead of giving this rose tinted image of brithing pools, NCT birthing dresses, soft music, nice biscuits, and a pain free and trouble free birth.

I wanted a water birth and to be able to stand up and walk around and to give birth standing up as i was told in my NHS antenatal classes that this was the best position as gravity would be on my side. I eneded up being induced as dd was 11 days overdue, lying down strapped to the monitor (babies heart was slow) being totally bed bound and having a ventouse, episiotomy to get the baby out. At the end of the day i did not care one jot whether it was a natural birth the only thing i cared was having a beautiful healthy baby in my arms and for me at least all the pain was forgotten and worth it

Yes but your NCT ideology has pervaded in the Obs and Gynae world particularly amongst the female midwifery staff. They borrow many of your ideas and beliefs all woman should try for no pain relief option. Ihad my baby in Bristol and this NCT view was very De rigeur there. Whether or not it is a cos saving idea I don,t know. Just accept that the NCT is a very powerful force and I did not appreciate the ehos being forced on me.

oh and the staff at Milton Keynes hospital were fantastic, really lovely and treated me with such respect. I Went to NHS antenatal classes in my area and they were advocating for more natural births, dead against c sections unless emergency. I was given a choice whether i had an epidural or not, i decided against it because of the risks

sabire completely agree with you. But must fess up to being an NCT teacher myself, and am finding much of the venom aimed at the charity I work for hard to take in silence.

I know there are different standards within the spectrum of NCT teaching out there, but the training is pretty rigorous (and it's a big no-no to use your own birth experience as any sort of reference). We have to be able to qualify all our teaching with proper research references, so everything I, or any qualified teacher teaches can be 'proved'. Also I give out statistics, local and national so as not to give any false impressions.

I can only comment on my classes, but I know that, liek the OP's teacher, I cover the full spectrum of possible interventions at every stage, including; CS, induction, assisted delivery, various forms of pain relief, episiotomies & tears, and scbu. I talk about the why and the how and whether it might be possible to avoid. I'm also fully aware that labour and birth are tricky customers. It's impossible to predict what will happen to any one woman, so my job is to cover all likelihoods, so that whatever happens Mum & Dad feel they have some understanding, & are less likely to feel panicked and frightened. I've been taught by the NCT to cover all these things, as well as the breathing, relaxation stuff - and yes, new baby stuff too.

The OP's post said that she was annoyed with the class, NOT the teacher. I think it's reasonable to feel annoyed with them, she gave up her time (very precious and hard to come by with a newborn) and didn't feel listened to, or that her experience was valued. However, hats off to that teacher for getting her in - she clearly did have in mind allowing her class 1st hand knowledge of the spectrum of experience of childbirth.

So with this in mind, maybe some of the earlier anti-NCT teacher posters could reconsider their responses? We're not out to persuade you all to eat lentils and give birth in a field. We aim to educate and prepare for whatever comes next.

& to whoever asked what the NCT offers that the NHS doesn't - the answer is 'Depends'. It depends what your NHS offers. Here our NHS classes, run by lovely midwives, cover pretty much the same topics, but they have 6 hours, I have 20. they have large groups of up to 30 or more, I have 6 couples. I have the luxury of getting to know my couples individually and tailoring my teaching & activities to their needs, they can't do that so easily. I can vary the exercises, they don't have the time. I can allow a topic of interest to go on longer so I can answer all the questions fully, they can't do that as they're more time constrained. And yes, I aim to create an ongoing self supporting group by the end of the sessions. Our Midwives can't do that with such large numbers. Your NHS provision may be different though?

OP, my experience is that as labour & birth approach, 1st time Mums aren't 'ready' to hear much about interventions. they tend to focus on the 'straightforward' labour stories they hear. This might be some kind of primitive protective reflex or something. However they will have heard your story and it will be valuable to them. I bet if you were to meet them at a reunion you'd hear them saying, "Oh yes, the epidural was just like that lady described" and stuff like that. Don't be downcast or disheartened. You did a great thing by telling them your story and many of them may have cause to be glad of it, I'm pretty certain your teacher was.

Sorry more typos but am hugely emotional on this issue. All women should have choice and NCT should keep their views within NCT and not try to influence fashion in procedures for birthing in the NHS.

So i did give birth naturally IMO as to me childbirth is a ntural process i just needed a little help getting her out

I agree with the point about NCT birthing dresses, and as much as I applaud most of the work the NCT does, I think it does itself a serious disservice to advertise crap like birthing dresses. I also wasn't particularly fussed about quality of biscuits - as long as I could get something to eat after 20 hours in active labour!

I think you need to put the myths and the rose-tinted stuff to one side. I feel the most important role of the NCT is in guiding and supporting women to feel empowered. Empowered about giving birth without being pushed into interventions which are not medically necessary. Most women don't need to be lying down, or strapped to a monitor, or pumped full of body numbing drugs. They just don't. If you end up with a birth like this, and you really don't care a jot afterwards, then you're lucky, but many women do care - they don't want their body mucked about with, or interventions which affect their baby - they really want to be allowed to experience birth as a natural event, and some women who don't feel incredibly let down afterwards.

I think it's fair game to slate the NCT for selling birthing dresses - but not fair game to slate them for supporting women in having natural births.

Yes and no violet, I was fully informed about being monitored and did not mind as my babies heart was slowing so that was of untmost importance to keep track of it, not just to be monitored for the sake of being monitored. Because i was on a monitor i was restricted, i did sit on one of those big ball thingies which was really helpful in releiving some of the pain, i had gas and air and meptid(which did not do much at all) and was given the choice of an epidural which i declined. At the end of the day getting the baby out is of utmost importance and did not care how it was done (having a plunger stuck in me and an episiotomy) the c section was reserved only for a dire emergecy.

All women should have choice and NCT should keep their views within NCT and not try to influence fashion in procedures for birthing in the NHS.

why not when there is good clinical evidence to back up those strategies?

it is the opinion of the WHO that too many CS / too much intervention goes on in the UK - what a bunch of paisley wearing flower children they are!

Nothing wrong with monitoring if medically advisable though - and the NCT would agree with that! I had a foetal scalp monitor for DC3 because it was a VBAC and therefore more risky, and his heart rate was slowing. I was glad that I knew what this procedure involved - and I'd learnt about it from reading my birth book and from what I was told at NCT!

I think the NCT sometimes gets a very unfair press. People assume it's all lentil eating earth mothers, when actually it's really about informing women, and supporting them in having a natural birth when that is medically possible, which statistically is most births. As I said, I think they are totally fair game when it comes to selling birthing dresses and other such crap - they aren't going to do their cause any favours.

harryharpie you wanted an epidural, you should have got one. Maybe you were too close to being fully dilated or the anesthetist was busy elsewhere and couldn't make it in time, who knows? But it wasn't because "NCT ideology has pervaded in the Obs and Gynae world" That's just codswallop. I've explained how evidence based the NCT view is. Rationally, it's more likely to be the other way around.

You seem very angry at your experience, but I'm amazed that despite you stating "That is why I never went to NCT cos the figures for blissed pain free births non/intervention are pretty low" you are still managing to blame the NCT for whatever happened to you. you're clearly in an angry state of needing to blame someone, or something, and if it makes you feel better - well OK. But at some point in the future when you're a bit more rational I hope you'll be able to look at the NCT charity with a more balanced view and see how your image of us all teaching "blissed pain free births non/intervention" is completely and utterly inaccurate.

Hi All, I think the NCT is mainly pro's vs cons and the NHS was not an option as couldn't get on the course as so over subscribed!

I met lovely people and was very lucky. I also went back as a favour to do the birth story and my friend was meant to come to but at the last minute was unable to. Our NCT teacher was very very clear prior to our births that she wanted to show us the very different sides of birth and it wasn't all roses and chocolates. Therefore we had two very different stories in our class but from the same hospital - which I was going to. I found this useful as one girl was so disparaging about the care she recieved that it really scared me but it was too late to change, the other girl had a brilliant experience if not great birth. The one who complained actually seemed to complain about a variety of things that wouldn't necessarily have been relevant on reflection!

I was v unlucky, due to complications I had to have an induction, this lead to a three day labour, pethidine, epidural, spinal block and about 30 seconds away from a general before my ECS. At the time I was so relieved to have my baby that I didn't care and that is the point I made at the class when I went back. Unfortuately for them they didn't have a choice as there was no other birth story to hear!

I was however made to feel out of the NCT that I hadn't done a proper job until an elective cs friend told me not to listen as yes the perfect birth would have been great but without the intervention of the medical team my child would be dead, or i would or both. The guilt is no longer! I did point out to the class that an ECS is something to prepare for but not expect. Prepare for the worst and it can only be better.

Sorry you had such silly people in your class, it is their loss and they will be ill prepared for any problems. Congrats on your DS and put it to the back of your mind. If you still feel crappy call your teacher and see if you can do another class to who might be more receptive.

I entirely agree with that EAP.

I think the Csection rate in the UK is shocking - and anyone who thinks it's all due to medical need is kidding themself. It's about fear of litigation, it's about women being disempowered and believing they need high tech intervention for giving birth, so that what starts off as a normal labour progresses to epidural, to forceps or csection, it's about the media culture here which holds up as role models size 6 celebs who get a csection and tummytuck scheduled to fit around their social engagements.

One thing you can be damn sure of - the increased Csection rate, and rate of many other interventions is NOT about medical need!

@ah, and OP, i think i know what you mean, and have een there, though at the opposite end of things, i keep rather quiet about having had a homebirth and few people at work asked me about it (despite having a collegau being pressed for the details of her epidural etc..)..no doubt becuause they think that's weird. but i also think i would be unreasonable to complain, because 1) maybe that's my paranoia and 2) i really don't think anything i could say would make them see it different.

so Y-a bit- U, but then that's reasonable unreasonableness, IYSWIM.

Not evey woman has same pain threshold, and I feel more damaged by the Natural labour they tried on me than anyone else. Just accept that everone has a choice and it should be honoured in all hospitals and I am qite clear in saying that Bristol Hospitals Maternity Units were extolling the trendy NCT methods odf birthing when DS was born and that is just as wrong as an NCT mum

Sorry spilt coffee now and am ranting Edagr what is wrong with wantin an epidural , you are very pro choce on the art front, but not when it comes to birth. And by choice, I mean some women want pain releif and lots of it. I would not have bonded less with my baby for having had an epidural. But they wouln't give me one coz as the m/wife said "all mums can do it naturally darlin you just need to try harder"

In my area there was a big push for home births but no one I know was able to have one as there wasn't any availability of midwives.

OK there probably are more cs than their should be but after having to have one I really can't see why anyone would actively set out to have one if not totally necessary - i.e it might be a bit painful to give birth - the don't bloody get pg!

A few vaginal stitches are nothing to an infected cs scar. Obviously I wouldn't know the pushing a watermelon through a small hoop experience of a natural birth BUT given the choice I will do that next time round because the recovery from the cs took months and it was two weeks before I ventured out of the house, 3-4 on own, couldn't set up the pushchair on my own - I digress but still boggles me as to anyone would actually choose that and stay in a hospital for days after when they could be home the following day.

EAP think they didn't ask you because your birth wasn't so gruesome to them. Lets face it everyone likes a car crash apart from a mother 2 days off due date!

I might go against the grain but when i was pg first time round, i obv read info on intervention etc but i hated people telling me their 'bad' birth stories, it just scareed me, obv i was aware it was a possibility but i didnt want to dwell on it too much

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dilamma the insensitive response from your nct teacher beggars belief.

Dilemma, what a fucking cow (your nct teacher) surely that isn't advocated by the NCT. Some people have no sensitivity at all and good for you for not going back. In your situation I would have demanded a refund!
Ducks, I agree dwelling on birth stories when pg is dreadful. So much so a friend had an awful epis and even told me what it sounded like - when my midwife asked what I wouldn't want I said an episiotomy and she made me feel v stupid to the point my blood pressure became so raised I had to be hospitalised. On reflection - as I did go through some significant labour pain pre ECS an epis would have been a doddle. However it was at no point even an option. Next time round I don't think it will bother me - more scared of a cs

I went to NHS classes, and we did get told about all kinds of unpleasant procedures, and me and DH flinched when we were shown the amnihook, and I thought, well, I'll not ask about any of this because the likelihood is, it won't happen to me.

In reality, they did use an amnihook in my second labour, and I did have an extended episiotemy in my first labour. I was glad that I had in advance, had a quick read of the NHS birth book and was familiar with them. But I wouldn't have wanted to know either in any detail, or listen to a new mum describe them, or believe in advance that they were going to happen to me.

Because even if some unpleasant things happen, most of them won't. How does it benefit anyone in advance to think about every worrying possibility?

And I have no interest in water births or aromatherapy. I just wanted a healthy baby. I didn't believe my birth would need lots medical information because I was some sort of superior person; I just believed that whoever you are, medical intervention is not the norm.

That's why on your hospital notes it never mentions 'natural delivery.' It is referred to a 'normal delivery.' It is statistically normal to have no interventions.

Dilemma 456 you sum the whole NCT ethos up. If a baby is 2 weeks late what do you do? Just let nature take its course does not always work your NCT teacher should be stapped to a tens machine on the highst level possibly and have her head pushed into a birthing pool for her shoddy advice

I think some people need to read the posts - Edgar didn't say there was anything 'wrong' with having an epidural, just pointed out that intervention and CSection rates are excessively high.

If you weigh up and pros and cons and still want an epidural then fine - your decision, and you shouldn't have had one witheld. But strongly as you feel about wanting an epidural, many women feel equally strongly that they don't want one.

And re: csections - I wasn't suggesting that most are given because women think they are easier - I think that's a very small percentage of celebs - I think the main reasons are fear of litigation, and also a culture which encourages women to think that highly medicalised birth is the norm. This leads to a cascade of interventions.