to become an extended bfeeder just to wind my friends up?

[AutomatedAlice]

I was talking with two friends who have similar aged babies (about 11 months) when I said I didn't know when I'll stop breastfeeding. One said,'but at 12 months they go on to cow's milk', and the other said, 'but when you get pregnant with your second you'll have to stop'. So I started playing devil's advocate and mentioned tandem feeding (which actually sounds like quite hard work to me). Both were horrified at the thought.

AIBU to continue bfeeding indefinitely just to see their reaction?

(Sorry if I should have put this in the feeding topic, but I've never had an AIBU thread )

There are a number of reasons though bibbitybobbity why mothers bottlefeed, the bottle could have expressed bm in it, or the mum might not have been sucessful bf and have tried but support for it here in this Country is not that good, not necessarily that the mum did not want to bf.

"Isnt a transition that toddlers/children will move on from bottle/breast to drinking out of an open cup or sippy cut, look at the NHS book they give you during pregnancy."

No. The NHS booklet talks about a transition from bottle to cup.

Formula companies want us to think 'transition from breast/bottle to cup' in order to sell us their nasty ole expensive toddler milk.

The NHS/DOH states that breastfeeding should should be exclusive to 6 months when complementary foods can be gradually introduced. It puts no upper limit suggestion on breastfeeding.

"When I see a woman sit their with her tit out til her walking child will come for a feed I can't help but think that I didn't want to see that when I am eating my lunch."

How come it is the people who dislike breastfeeding past (insert arbitrary age) are the ones who always seem to have this sort of thing happen around them? Please share with us where we can see this occurring. I am fascinated and would like to see it at least once in my life.

I have seen large toddlers being breastfed openly but it was not in this country and no one batted an eye.

'Curiosity - It is a fact, not an opinion at all, actually. And I don't see how it's an attack on parents who wean their babies younger than that - just stating a fact! hmm

Breastmilk isn't just about nutrition. What appears strongly to be the natural age for humans to wean from the breast, is also the age at which their immune systems are fully mature, for example.

Lots of other evidence for the natural weaning age to be somewhere between 5 and 7 years old.

Babies who wean before they are one are not usually doing true weaning - you'll probably find this offensive, but if you'd bfed truly, truly naturally, which means free access to the breast so very, very frequent short feeds, it would be very, very unlikely that your babies would have weaned that young. In the 'natural' world, it would be very unsafe for them to do so.'

It is an opinion - o·pin·ion (-pnyn)
n.

1. A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof: "The world is not run by thought, nor by imagination, but by opinion" (Elizabeth Drew).
2. A judgment based on special knowledge and given by an expert: a medical opinion.
3. A judgment or estimation of the merit of a person or thing: has a low opinion of braggarts.
4. The prevailing view: public opinion.
5. Law A formal statement by a court or other adjudicative body of the legal reasons and principles for the conclusions of the court.

It is not a fact -

fact (fkt)
n.

1. Knowledge or information based on real occurrences

2. a. Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact. b. A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case. c. Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts.

1. A thing that has been done, especially a crime: an accessory before the fact.
2. Law The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence: The jury made a finding of fact.

Do you know what the word fact means? the words 'appears strongly' and 'evidence' do not a fact make. Natural weaning age theories are just that theory - anthropological theory,

You often hear that the worlwide average age of weaning is 4.5 years. This is a relatively meaningless statistic and is in fact a red herring given that it is relatively common for children to be entirely ff from birth in developed countries. In a poor tropical country such as malawi where there is poverty and poor access to clean drinking water, good quality food and higher levels of infectious diseases then it will be vital for a child to get most of it's nutrition from breastfeeding for as long as possible. In a developed country where there is access to good quality food, healthcare, there are few infectious diseases and clean water it is easier for a child to get most of it's nutrition from solid food.

In terms of fact, there is no such thing as a 'natural weaning age' as a standard age for humans to biologically wean completely from the breast. Weaning ages are variable depending on circumstances, geography, cultural factors, parental edcuation, personal choice, introduction of solids e.t.c. Not all of these factors have only existed in the modern world.

There are various theories about 'biological weaning age'

• some paediatric theories suggest that 'natural/biological weaning age' is equal to gestation - 9 months.
• some paediatric theories suggest mammals wean their offspring when they have tripled or quadrupled their birth weight suggesting a 'natural/biological weaning age' of either 1 year or 2.5 to 3.5 years.
• The results of some studies indicate that a child's immune system is not fully mature until 6 years and that breastmilk, containing anti-bodies can boost a child's immune protection giving a 'natural/biological weaning age' theory of 6 years.
• A comparison of weaning age relative to sexual maturity in primates would produce a 'natural/biological weaning age' of 6-7 years.

There are various other theories about 'natural/biological weaning age', Katherine Dettwyler PhD's Anthropological paper 'A Natural Age of Weaning' examines some of the theories and predicts a 'natural weaning age' of between 2.5 - 7 years i.e. all human children will naturally wean from the breast between 2.5 - 7 years. This is a theory not a fact.

IMO it actually does not matter a jot what a 'natural/biological weaning age' actually is in humans - geographical, ecomomic and cultural factors have become the most important in determining weaning age.

Your opinion that if I had fed my babies predominantly on breastmilk rather than solid food then they wouldn't have weaned at 10/11 months is the same opinion I express in my last post. I do not find that opinion offensive.

What I find offensive is mainly your presentation of opinions and theories as facts and your ownership and use of 'professional language' to support the expression of various opinions; your own and some professional theories as if they were fact. I find it offensive because it is dangerous to present opinion, professional or not, as fact.

Basically, it is Chunkymonkey's opinion that extended breastfeeding is not necessary. It may be an extended breastfeeders opinion that extended breastfeeding is necessary.

We are all entitled to our own opinions and judgements about what is best for our children based on information we have. That may be that 'ff never harmed my children' or that 'various studies have shown children don't have fully matured immune systems until 6 years'.

There is no point in attacking each others own informed opinions and judgements, we can only make our own informed judgements and decisions and have no control over someone else's. This is a fact. If you recognise this then it is reasonable to make a judgement that it is not really appropriate to let your personal offence at a mother breastfeeding an older child in public be known in a judging way or use your own feeling that the 'biologically normal' weaning age is between 2 and 3 to undermine people whose children weaned earlier. Much better to have a sensible converstation about facts and theories than let your own personal worries about what other people are doing get you into a personal argument.

oh dear my ff child is going to have a lifetime of illness better be prepared for one sickly child. An opnion is that just an opinion not necessarily substatiated with fact but is part of a persons belief system, doesnt mean we should not have an opnion. Its up to the mum at the end of the day, they know their child the best, i am not attacking any particular person just giving my opnion on my beliefs.

However dosent every child make the transition to a cup not just those on bottles?, if they dident we would all be drinking from bottles and breasts still as teens and adults ovbvious really dont need a study to tell you that.

"If you want a more supportive thread i suggest going on the breast/bottlefeeding forum and finding the extended bf thread"

Interesting response Piglet. I was actually thinking that this thread is deeply unsupportive to bottle feeders. Apparently my children are unable to find comfort from me because I didn't breastfeed, which is of course nonsense.

Yes there are sound medical reasons why historically it was safer to breastfeed exclusively for longer, but they don't really exist in modern society. We have modern medicine and immunisations, clothing and central heating, and we don't have to get our water from a well or ditch.

It's true that if I'd have been born 1000 years ago I would have had to have breastfed. But if I'd have been born 1000 years ago I wouldn't have made it to adulthood so it's a bit pointless to suggest I should parent as if I was.

If someone chooses to extend breastfeeding it is a choice they have made that' different to a choice another mother has made. Nothing more, nothing less.

From some of the statements on here there seems to be an underlying feeling of "it makes me a better mother." Which is ludicrous.

But in fact you are right. This whole folder seems to exist so people can have an excuse to be vile to each other. But no-one's forcing me to read it so I don't think I will again.

This thread can get quite heated with very strong opinions from either side, if a mum who does bf after say 1 year and wants to continue to do so until the childis ready and was looking to talk to other like likeminded people than this would be the wrong thread, so i was mearly pointing out out that the extended bf thread would be better to offer support. Posts appearing in the AIBU forum where people may not word things as sensitively and can get quite heated.

Well said piglet.

I apologise for offending anyone, that was never my intention. I thought that by posting in AIBU, I was able to give my views on this matter, but it appears not.

At the end of the day, all I did was post a story about what my aunt did with her child saying that I did not think it was appropriate for the said child to be breastfed in a busy public place at the age of 3, almost 4 whilst playing with his mums nipple at the same time & I got blasted for it.

I realise that for whatever reason, this has offended some people & for that I apologise, but it was just my opinion. I never said anyone elses opinion was wrong, yet a lot of you felt it necessary to tell me that mine was wrong and throw so-called facts at me.

So, with that being said, I think what others have said about posting in the breast/bottle feeding topic may have been more appropriate if it was support you were seeking rather than opinions.

I apologise too.

I'm just in a pissy mood today.

To be entirely honest most of the other threads in the folder have either made me smile with how supportive people can be of complete strangers, or made me cross about parking/drivers/politicians which is fine.

I should probably nap (chance would be a fine thing) and lighten up a bit.

Yes exactly we all have our different opinions no we are not going to change peoples minds either way, i myself am not comfortable with a school age child bf and i dont agree with it myself, but i would never ever make someone feel uncomfortable if i did see it in public, thats only my opinion after all, no fact to substatiate it and why should there be as i am not stating fact but an opinion based on my personal belief system.

Also that does not mean i dont agree with bf and dont support it no way, i would have loved to have bf my baby and agree withat bm is superior to formula but if there is no other way than its the only way to feed a baby if mums milk is not an option. Gosh i have learnt so much on Mumsnet, if i had known about relactating before i would have tried that sooner.

oooh would love to nap worzel but i have a busy day, gosh i do love the AIBU threads some of the posts do bring a smile. When i do post an opinion i do try to be as sensitive as possible

I think sometimes with issues like extended breastfeeding, things other people do can be so far away from your own experiences with your own child that they can seem very outlandish, unnecessary, shocking etc.

The thing is, you don't suddenly start, say, feeding your 3 year old in public, you start feeding your newborn in public and just don't stop, and so it feels the normal thing to do, you and your child are used to it, it is still an integral part of your relationship with onme another - there doesn't seem to be any reason to stop.

On the other hand, if you stop when your baby is much smaller, then you haven't experienced that gradual transition of having a breastfeeding baby to a breastfeeding toddler, you look at your 3 year old and can't possibly imagine breastfeeding him now, he's gone so long not wanting or needing it.

I still breastfeed my almost 2 year old, but now only at bedtime, and I have to admit that I find the idea of feeding her in public now very strange, because it has been probably about 6 or 7 months since I have done so, so in my head I think "well, she's grown out of that". But feeding her at bedtime is still the most natural thing in the world.

Just because my daughter no longer needs breastfeeds in the day doesn't mean other children of a similar age, or older also don't need them. My daughter dropped her daytime nap very early - but I don't therefore think that all children her age should have dropped theirs too.

(And about the transition from breastto cup thing, surely children are able to drink from a cup and a breast, it doesn't have to be an either/or)

I remember watching a friend BF her 1 year old when DS was about 6 weeks and finding it made me feel very uncomfortable.

DS is now 20 months and still happily nursing and while I understand that it can make people feel uncomfortable, it is completely their problem, born of ignorance. Ignorance of the experience of feeding a child that long.

Nobody suddenly starts offering their breast to a 3 year old. Their babies nurse for food and comfort, and as they get older, IME if they are allowed to continue to nurse for more than food, they will continue to want the breast as one of their sources of comfort. The older children that I know that are still nursing were very much cue fed. Its a gradual transition, and I strongly believe that it is that process of watching your baby grow into a breastfeeding toddler that makes you understand how and why it is important to that child. I have no idea if children who do not have this opportunity are missing out on something vital, but I know that my son is not ready to stop, and if I did wean him, he would be missing out on something he loves.

Of course there are other ways of offering comfort. My DS is quite happy to take cuddles from other people, particularly when I am not around but often when I am. Nursing is one of his tools to calm himself down or deal with his moods when he is tired, but it is not the be-all and end all. But to deny him access when that is what he decides he needs because it might offend someone else - no way!

By the way, I don't like it when a child runs over and pulls their mum's top up, the same as I don't like it when children snatch at things. (I particularly don't like it when its mine, but sometimes it happens!) Its all just manners and when a child is tired or upset those often go out of the window.

Breastfeeding a toddler can be a real commitment in terms of time and emotions, but it is a choice that should be made for the right reasons. 'winding up' friends isn't a good one, but hopefully if you do decide to continue you will be educating them.

Oh and my understanding of the bottle/cup transition is that sucking on a bottle can damage the development of the mouth and teeth - hence the encouragement to wean off of bottles at whatever age it is.

AFAIK this is not the case for breastfeeding - I believe BF is good, orthodontically, so for that reason there is no reason to wean from the breast to a cup. I don't know any BF kids that don't happily drink from cups too, once the early weaning to solids is over.

"However dosent every child make the transition to a cup not just those on bottles?,"

Depends, I think. Some babies breastfeed and later acquire the skill of using a cup. It is an addition to not replacement for breastfeeding. As the volume of food and non-milk drinks rise as a normal part of weaning, the breastfeeds decline. Milk is never given in a cup as a replacement for breastfeeds.

OTOH, the DOH/NHS guidance for weaning babies onto a cup is more like this, imho: when ff babies are weaned off the bottle and onto a cup, it is milk (formula or cow's) which go into the cup. Some bf babies of course also have cow's milk and formula in a cup and still breastfeed. So it can be seen as less of a replacement and more of an addition.

Some little monkies breastfed babies who even after they learn how to use a cup very proficiently, refuse to drink expressed milk from a cup. It is straight from Mama or nothing.

I have been avoiding posting again as I didn't want to bump what was becoming a less than lighthearted thread, but I would like to respond to bibbitybobbityCAT.

I'll admit that my OP was a touch inflammatory, breast/bottlefeeding is such a passionate topic for so many people that flippant remarks about winding people up are perhaps unwise.

But I'm a little taken aback by being called (horribly) smug. My OP was responding to being told in extremely firm terms by two close friends exactly what I should do with regards to feeding. She didn't say 'babies can go on to cow's milk at 12 months', she stated that they did, with the implication that my daughter should too. My other friend didn't suggest it might be easier/less tiring to stop breastfeeding if I got pregnant again, she exclaimed that I would have to stop.

I was reacting against the implicit disapproval and the explicit instruction on how I should parent. I would never ever give such a direct and contradictory opinion about another parent's decisions, unless directly asked.

My final defence is that I thought my OP and my subsequent post made it clear that it was all tongue in cheek and I was in no way serious. But I admit that it is difficult to judge tone.

It was a mistake to put this in AIBU, as these things often are. I am sorry it has turned into another slinging match about extended breastfeeding, that was the last thing I wanted.

Thanks for coming back & posting again AA. It's nice to see that some of us can admit that perhaps our posts didn't come across in the right way & can apologise for the things we've said & the people we have offended regardless of our opinions and beliefs. I totally understood that your OP was meant to be tongue in cheek, but obviously others didn't see it like that.

Anyway, I think we should leave this post to the bottom of the pile now don't you

Chairmummiaow - what a absolutely fantastic post. Totally 'got' it and you are right it is ignorance,

Squiglet - thanks

I'm just grateful I seem to have grown blinkers and never notice strangers if they are at all disapproving. I do, however notice my SIL and MIL who look everywhere but at me, and tut when DS would rather have milk than food if he is in an unfamiliar situation. Sod 'em.

Just wait until they find out I'm planning to tandem feed

are you pg Chairmum?

About the transition to a cup thing though, that doesn't make much sense to me - it's not a transition, it's something separate. You can't put water or juice in a breast for a child to drink from, so they are always going to be from a cup or beaker. (Or a bottle, obviously, but I never saw the logic of this one - why start on something you will need to wean from if there's an alternative?) Of course you can express milk in a cup (although I've found it harder to express as my baby has got older for some reason) but why on earth would you bother to, unless you wanted someone else to feed the baby?

ds loved cups with water in, he found it the most exciting part of starting food. he still isn't sure about cows milk unless it is hot choc.

chairmummiaow top post.

Virginia - yes but only 5 weeks, so only mumsnet and a few friends know

I was always planning to tandem though, if DS permitted, because I felt I had a slow supply (there was enough, clearly, but DS sucked for a long time to get it!) - there was never the guzzling we get now. I hope, and other tandemers seem to agree, that having a toddler helping keep your supply up would improve both supply and flow

I have a rule that I'll tell people I'm pregnant if I could bear to tell them if something went wrong - and if something went wrong I'd definitely be off to mumsnet for some sympathy!