to be annoyed by a party talking about mending the society they broke?

[tatt]

without any apparent recognition that it was their revered leader (Thatcher for anyone too young to remember) who was a major cause of the breakdown? I know it's an improvement on there is no such thing as society but it still annoys me.

if the books were healthy when the tories left power it was because they had sold everything that wasn't nailed down. One of the slogans at the time - if the Tories had a conscience they'd sell it.

As for Mrs Thatcher role in ending the Cold War - difffrent views on that www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article6829716.ece#

She did keep the Falklands British, of course - sinking the Belgrano outside the exclusion zone.

christ its nice to be amongst (some) like minded people. i cant believe people are falling for DC, he makes me physically sick. bertie boo were you asleep in the 80's?

and to say the camerons are in touch with reality because of their son (24 hour private care, other kids had double shift nannies, they both held on to highly paid full time jobs) (remember though they dont want poor litlle mite god rest his soul bought in to politics... ahem) is just pure fantasy spin straight out of CCO.

and as for thatcher and reagan ending the cold war..... that is just hysterical - they lady i dont know what history book you are reading but it aint the same as the rest of us are on....

Scaryteacher your argument are eloquent and well put. However, I find it a shame that as a teacher (I assume you taught in the state sector?) you think that standards are poorer under this government. I work in education, and was a teacher, and as I work now with lots of teachers I resent what you say. I was educated in the 80s, under a Tory government, and frankly my education left a lot to be desired. I am very lucky that I had a huge amount of support from my parents.

I don't support everything that Labour have done to the state education system, but having taught in it and worked in it since 1995 I see a whole lot that's better now than I had in the 80s and have read about the 70s.

Just because Curiosity was young when Thatcher left power (lucky her), does this mean she isn't entitled to an opinion and an interest in politics that occurred before her actual living memory? That pretty much discredits any historian writing before 1900 then...

Erm, I meant, any historian writing about time before 1900

'that for all her faults, she stood up for what she believed in and was prepared to take on her own party and fight for it'. Omit 'she' for 'he' and you could write the same sentence about Tony Blair...

I hit secondary education in 1977, and left it in 1984. I went through the comprehensive system, and then to sixth form college. I would argue that I was much better educated than the children I taught in the state system from 2000-2006. That is why ds has always been privately educated.

Please also note that I am not criticising teachers per se, I am criticising the system within which they have to work, and the material with which they have to work (curriculum content; being judged on residuals and their value added ignored; constant tinkering and interference from on high with teaching methods). The constant barrage of testing and examining does little to enhance the educational experience for the students or the teachers, and the room to grow and expand one's knowledge has been removed at sixth form level.

Standards have dropped. I have seen an A level maths paper that contained a question from the 1976 O level paper. Now, either students were cleverer in the mid 70s, or papers have got easier. The new RE specifications for one of the exam boards states that 'we have removed the topics your students found difficult' - why? Teaching is a matter of spoonfeeding now at GCSE, and because of the requirements of the syllabus, the students don't write extended essays, leaving them woefully unprepared for the demands of AS. The sheer fact that AS had to be introduced showed the gap between GCSE and A level requirements had widened. I did O levels and then went straight through two years of study leading to sitting A levels in 1984. We had two years to grow and study and not have to worry about exams, apart from internal ones. One had time not to feel constantly examined and pressured. This is not the case today with the AS level (Year 12s) I have taught.

The requirement to take a foreign language was dropped for KS4. Again, this is a drop in standards. I now live in Belgium where most Belgians can speak Flemish, French and English. We are turning out a generation who cannot converse in anything but English. If standards are so high, why was I having to drill Year 9 students in the difference between their, they're and there; and you're and your? (Putting yore and yaw into the mix confused them too much). I had a student in my year 7 tutor group who had level 5 in science at KS2. Great, one might think - except he could neither read nor write, and he was not alone in this. That is a dismal failure, and that was in 2005. My mil, who is chair of a curriculum committee at a large comp tells me that this is not uncommon, despite the education, education, education mantra we keep hearing.

Education provision is patchy across the UK. Please explain to me, if the Government is so intent on a level playing field, why the amount of funding per child varies so widely and wildly across the country. Why are children in Devon and Cornwall (which qualifies for objective 1 funding from the EU due to poverty) having so much less spent per head than students in Labour constituencies? That is political game playing, and you don't do that with education.

I mark GCSEs to keep my hand in whilst abroad, and I have to say that the standard is lower. I am having to give credit now for things that I would not have given a mark for 5 years ago. The only improvement that I can see is ICT, and that is only because computers weren't around when I was at school, and a Sinclair ZX Spectrum was the height of technology at sixth form.

Curiosity is perfectly entitled to her opinion; however, before everyone of that age slams Mrs Thatcher, they might like to look at what went before her. You from your posts, sound like you were born in the mid to late 60s as I was. I can remember the power cuts, the winter of discontent, the union leaders such as Red Robbo holding the Government to ransom, so for me, the Tories gaining power meant an improvement in the quality of life.

Tatt - exclusion zone be damned. That cruiser could have attacked the task force and caused untold damage. The whole South Atlantic was a battle zone at that point. The Submarine Service did what it was trained to do and did it well.

All the tories care about is money. Unfortunately that's a all voters seem to care about too- especially in a recession.
I just wish more people could see the bigger picture.

i am interested in the lib dems and I'm going to read their manifesto. Why shouldn't we take them seriously. Everyone is sick and fed up of the two big guns. Give someone else a fresh start. they do need to up their game and pack a punch with the self promotion though. they are just in the background atm.

That's a bit of a blanket statement there PSM. Why do you assume that? I'm a Tory, and I care about things other than money.

"she did teach me that your background and sex wasn't a barrier to progresing into whichever profession to chose to go into"

But god forbid if you were confused about your sexuality and tried to talk to a teacher about it. Thatcher taught every gay member of a generation that you couldn't talk about the most pressing issue of your adolescent life in the place that you spent the most time. Individualism my shiny arse.

i've read it all now - thatcher ending the cold war and the sinking of belgrano being justified? what planet are you all on? next you'll be claiming credit for the tories ending apartheid...

The sinking of the Belgrano was justified militarily, full stop, no commas. It was a war sweetie, and bad things happen.

George Osbourne's kids actually go to a private £11k a year school - that's more than I earnt in my last job.

I hate it when people say that state schools are crap scaryteacher and that's why they send their kids to private school. Woohoo for you. It's like mums justifying why they have 4x4s on the school run, to keep their precious darlings safe should they have a crash - yeah, sod the rest of us! Our kids aren't as important as yours so we just have to take our chances with the rest of them whilst yours get elevated positions.

The state system might be crap according to you, but some of us are trying to put it right, some of us give up our spare time to go into those schools and offer additional lessons, listen to kids read, etc.

I'm pleased for you that your ds is getting a better education than those in the state schools. But I'm working for the majority, not the minority. And I'm afraid the Tories only have the minorities interests at heart - the bankers and the rich.

scaryteacher - your posts make it appear as though what you are most concerned with is your own smug, snide superiority. I can't believe the nastiness, the representation of your own opinions as though they are facts!

I am entitled to my opinion, but I am wrong, so there! lol Not the most original argument in the world!I love the irony of the "you didn't live through it, your comments are not valid" argument too, that was basically the premise of my original comment. You even make my argument for me - Brown and Blair not changing things?

I, however, was not talking about what things were like way back when. I was talking about changes the Thatcher administration made which I believe affect Britain TODAY, a Britain you are not experiencing first hand... FACT.

Fair enough, you are a Tory, you believe in Tory politics but your opinions are not facts, no matter how much bullying or 'eloquent' language you use.

dont call me sweetie. christ are you a teacher? feel sorry for your charges, are they allowed to express opinions, or do you bat them down like everyone else?

i do know it was a war. but even in war their are just and unjust practices. the sinking of the belgrano was not and can never be justified and several army generals and tories in govt at the time have confirmed this.

'Your profile says you live in Belgium so I'm not sure you'd have anything except the press to rely upon for an impression of the state of the UK.' seemed extremely snide to me Curiosity, and somewhat condescending. I don't live in the UK at the moment because the BRITISH GOVERNMENT sent my husband abroad. I went with him after two years as I didn't want to stop teaching in the state system. However, the UK is an hour away by Eurostar, and I am back frequently, so I do experience the UK on a regular basis. I pay a UK mortgage and UK tax, as does dh, so I do experience the UK. I'll be experiencing it when I'm back on Sunday, and in November and December, so your arguments don't add up. If we are posted back next year, I will be experiencing it again. I am affected by Labour policies today, how can I not be? The tax policies, the rise in NI all affect me. The withdrawal of HRP from women with children over twelve who don't work affects me, as I will now make voluntary contributions to make sure I get my full pension. The interest rate changes will affect me when my fixed rate mortgage ends. Ds may go to a UK uni; that will affect me as we will be paying the tuition fees and the accommodation costs and supporting him. My family are in the UK, so of course I experience it, and it affects me. Just because a crown servant and his family live abroad, doesn't mean that we are not affected. The withdrawal of the British Forces Post Office from NATO HQs in Europe affects me. The withdrawal of the submarines from Plymouth to Faslane affects me as my home is in the West Country, and that will have a knock on effect on jobs.

I can't see where I have been nasty though - please elucidate? This is AIBU after all, and people are entitled to their opinions, even though we may and do strongly disagree with each other. Have you bothered to read anything I've posted about education on this thread? It is fact, not opinion. There is not a fairness in education funding; standards have dropped; there is too much interference from Govt in the business of teaching. What is nasty in saying that? I also smile when people equate an argument they don't agree with, with bullying. How have I bullied you? I have disagreed with you and put my own argument forward. That is dialogue, not bullying.

I really do not understand why people are still harking back to the 80s and blaming Mrs Thatcher for the state of the UK today. Labour have been in power for 12 years, and have imo cocked up. They have had enough time to sort things out that they didn't like, and frankly blaming the Tories for what is happening today is like blaming your Mum for something that happened when you were a teenager when you are my age. The power of the unions needed to be broken; deregulation and privatisation were going to happen. A large monolithic state does not work in non Communist countries and that was what we had, and what we are heading back to.

Rhubarb - I was a state school teacher, so I was in there, doing my 60 hour weeks for 5 years. I lived, breathed and dreamed about teaching. The only way perversely I could get the wraparound childcare necessary to teach in a comp was to send ds to private school, as dh was away at sea, working elsewhere in the UK, or abroad for much of the time. If you read what I actually said, as opposed to what you want to read into my posts, I said that 'I am not criticising teachers per se, I am criticising the system within which they have to work, and the material with which they have to work (curriculum content; being judged on residuals and their value added ignored; constant tinkering and interference from on high with teaching methods). The constant barrage of testing and examining does little to enhance the educational experience for the students or the teachers, and the room to grow and expand one's knowledge has been removed at sixth form level.' The system is wrong, not the teachers who do the best they can within the framework they have been landed with.

You say: 'Our kids aren't as important as yours so we just have to take our chances with the rest of them whilst yours get elevated positions.' Yes, your kids are important, and education for so many of the kids I taught was a way out of their family situations, and living in a poor rural area where the job prospects were not brilliant. However, I do not like SATS and the straitjacket of the National Curriculum, so I chose not to use the local school. I am lucky to have been able to afford it. I chose to spend my salary on school fees and not on other things.

HerHonesty - would you prefer 'Hun'? Yes, I'm a teacher, and we used to have fab debates in the classroom. Give the students a nice controversial topic and sit back and listen. Again, I felt at the time and still do, that the sinking of the Belgrano was justified. The whole of the South Atlantic was a war zone and you don't let an enemy Armed Cruiser anywhere near the Fleet if you can avoid it. I don't see the significance of what the Army Generals thought - it was the Navy doing the fighting at sea, and it was the Navy's call. The sinking was approved in Whitehall, and Chris Wreford-Brown could not have loosed those Mark 8 torpedoes without the highest authority.

I found this which you may like to look at:
'Questions were asked about the legitimacy of the attack especially as the Belgrano was outside of the Exclusion Zone. The British government maintained that the Belgrano still represented a threat to the Task Force and in this they were, to an extent, supported by the Belgrano?s captain. Hector Bonzo later made the point that though the Belgrano was sailing away from the Exclusion Zone, it was not sailing to its port in Ushuaia in Tierra del Fuego, It was simply moving to another unspecified position to await further orders ? that could have included attacking the Task Force. The naval commander of the Task Force, Admiral Sandy Woodward, made the point that the Belgrano and its escorts were more than capable of turning about at speed and thus returning to a course towards the Task Force.

Also on April 23rd, the Argentine government was handed a message from the British government (via the Swiss Embassy) that it held the right to take whatever action was required to defend itself if any Argentine ?warship, including submarines, naval auxiliaries or military aircraft? seemed to threaten the naval Task Force. Clearly as the Belgrano was considered to be a threat, it was attacked and sunk. After the war, Argentinean Rear- Admiral Allara admitted that the whole of the South Atlantic became an operational theatre during the conflict and that the Belgrano was a casualty of war.'

I think the reason I don't like Labour is that they seem to want to make my decisions for me. There is over regulation; a tax system so complex that even HMRC can't answer a straightforward question about information posted on their website. There is an intrusive creep into family life; into the information the state holds about one; why are the details of our kids that are going on to the new Children's database being held until they are 24? Why do we need ID cards? I don't like the marginalisation of rural communities; the Tories have an understanding of the countryside and agriculture that Labour do not.

atlantis i can post link after link after link which will counter your arguements. but this is not what this argument is about, and I really cant be bothered to argue with someone like you. you've got your own (imho very fucked up)opinions, i've got mine. but dont condescend me, or anyone else with your sarcastic asides hun/sweetie bolocks, its just highly immature and shows you up for the sort of person you really are.

12 years is no time at all to fix a society that was pulled apart by 18 years of a party believed that it was one man for himself, regardless of how many people got trampled over in the process.

Yes, the labour government has lost its way, but what they have achieved in 12 years - considering what they inherited - is imho significantly postive for us all and I believe history will judge it that way (but probably not the sort of history analysis you read scary).

unfortunately, we are now faced with the prospect of wathcin cameron and his cronies unwind it all. lets hope its only for 5 years, not another 19.

scaryteacher I'm afraid I can't have any respect for someone who teaches in state schools but sends their children private, but that's another argument and one I've argued in mumsnet before.

Anyway, quite apart from that the sinking of the Belgrano was an utter disgrace, war or no war, and your justification of it sounds straight out of Thatcher's mouth.

I can't speak for the secondary sector, but when I compare what I know of primary schools at first hand, with what I hear from a friend who has her children in a private primary, I can see all the reasons that state education has a lot to be proud of.

I would also add that Curiosity may have been too young to remember Thatcher, but she certainly would have felt that effects growing up of her legacy. Even though I feel disillusioned and let down by this government, and not supportive of much they have done, I still think my 3 year-old has benefitted from them being in power and will continue to do so.

I wasn't being sarcastic HH at all, neither was I condescending to you. I'm from a military background, so will see the sinking of the Belgrano from a different pov to you, much as I suspect I see Afghanistan.

I am far too old to be thought immature by anyone except my Mum, but thank you for that, it makes me feel under 40 again. I don't see how you can possibly comment on the sort of person I am, when you don't know me, or anything about me. I was hoping for some rational debate or a reasoned refutation of my points, but you just want to resort to personal remarks and name calling. I will draw my own conclusions about you from that, but am far too polite to air them on here.

I don't believe that society was pulled apart under the Tory government; however I do think it has been under Labour. Even if Labour had another 6 years to sort the country out, do you seriously believe they would do so? They inherited a country with a well balanced set of books; with gold; with a pension system the envy of other EU countries and they threw the lot away and put us in the position we are in now. Even GB realises he has cocked up and has alienated many people. That was demonstrated by his sudden solidarity with the middle classes at the party conference.

I hope that Tories are in long enough to reverse the cut to the 10% tax rate and that they will raise tax allowances so that the poorest in society get taken out of tax. I hope they will balance the books and get the UK out of debt. Yes it will hurt, but it needs to be done, and I can't see Brown and Co doing it.

armed forces wife eh? should have guessed.

marginilisation of rural communities and the decline of agriculture as a signficant driver in our economy is as much an impact of our changing economy and globalisation as it is government policy.

also just to remind you atlantis, you've forgotten to mention the stuff about fox hunting, i am sure you have your own opinions/something from the tory website you have learnt that you can post for us.. tut tut tut you are failing.

and the last i knew it faslane was actually in the UK ... but then of course i forget, the tories dont actually care about Scotland, do they ... not that the scots care much for them either.

xposted

a pension system the envy of other EU countries ha ha ha. you are kidding, arent you??

Since when did the Tory party become the champions of the poor? I find this re-aligning really weird, and totally unconvincing.

By the way scaryteacher do you think that DC's wizard wheeze of letting anyone run a school provided they have enough money will raise standards?

guys do you think ST is actually a phantom blogger from tory party hq? i cant believe someone like this actually exists in real life?

respect to tatt for working the Belgrano into the discussion

Here are a few facts that I'll bet scaryteacher doesn't like us to dwell on.