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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To want to bring back the dealth penalty?

176 replies

hugmeandcatchthelurgi · 01/10/2009 15:16

Another child pornography case in the news, why cant we bring back the death penalty?

Im a firm believer in peadophiles cant be rehabilitated, why send them to jail? i think the dealth penalty is more appropriate for peadophiles and child abusers

AIBU?

This last case in plymouth really upsets me, so maybe i am more hormonal than normal!

OP posts:
OrmIrian · 01/10/2009 16:08

We are degraded as human beings if we allow the state to kill others. Regardless of their crime. And however much we want to see them suffer.

GhostWriter · 01/10/2009 16:10

I think sanctioned murder and reasonable are impossible bed partners and while I live in a civilised society I am relieved that the death penalty will never be reintroduced.

A discussion of the competency and consistency of the legal system is a separate matter from barbaric punishment. The death penalty works as neither effective deterrent nor sustainable solution. And thank God for that.

Maggie34Behave · 01/10/2009 16:10

YABU.

I am not as liberal as some though. I would like them to suffer more in prison. I mean, not filthy cells or anything, but I think that for a certain kind of person, who lacked ambition, needs structure etc, prison mgiht not be that bad.

So, no to the death penalty, always, no matter what. Who would press the button!? Who'd have that on their conscience??

But yes to a harder to endure sentence. Is that fascist???

sherby · 01/10/2009 16:14

Harsher conditions yes yes yes. Sending people somewhere they really don't mind being is hardly a punishment.

Aussieng · 01/10/2009 16:18

Of course you can - on MN and talking int he pub. The difficulty is in arriving at legislation which is fair and works in all circumstances.

That 18 y/o would end up on the sex offenders register for 5 years. I'm not sure that is right or what was intended.

I oppose the death penalty anyway.

Original poster
hugmeandcatchthelurgi · 01/10/2009 16:18

Yeah ok maybe im BU in wanting death sentances, but prison seems such an easy ride.

I think prison needs to be a harsher environment, and none of this appeal and out in 5mins shit.

OP posts:
TwoManyFallsAndYouGetABadScore · 01/10/2009 16:19

Whilst I understand the emotion behind the sentiment behind "bring back the death penalty" I fail to see what it would acheive apart from revenge. It is not a deterant and has no place in a civilised society.

I do agree with tougher sentences, harsher conditions and life to mean life.

GhostWriter · 01/10/2009 16:20

Prisons aren't an easy ride. They are not 'appeal and out in 5mins shit'. They are flawed, inconsistent and financially screwed but do you know the reality of prisons beyond the sensationalist 'sky tv and snooker tables' headlines?

Original poster
hugmeandcatchthelurgi · 01/10/2009 16:21

Yes i visit prisions frequently, and alot of secure hospitals.

They are an easy ride, prisoners play the system.

OP posts:
GhostWriter · 01/10/2009 16:25

What is it you want to introduce in prisons hugme, out of interest? And the life meaning life for which offenders? How do you decide there is no rehabilitative opportunity for a prisoner?

MorrisZapp · 01/10/2009 16:27

To anybody who thinks prison is easy, why don't you go and commit a crime then, and enjoy the free telly and food in prison?

It's about loss of liberty, not harsh living conditions. I'd crack after one day in prison never mind months of it.

As for the death penalty, I abhor the very idea, but even if I supported it, it's a dead end debate because it could never work in practice.

I've heard so many people saying 'yeah but only for people who are definitely guilty like Ian Huntly' etc, which in effect creates three verdicts: Guilty, not guilty and definitely guilty.

Either people are guilty or they aren't. We can't have people languishing in prison who we think probably are guilty, we have to be sure.

It's hard enough to secure convictions for serious and violent crimes in this country, the burden of proof is very high and there are endless loopholes etc. Do we really want to add to this the fact that in a juror's mind, they are sending somebody to death if they convict?

It's a hopeless suggestion. On so many levels, it doesn't and can never work.

OrmIrian · 01/10/2009 16:29

yes morris, exactly. Lack of liberty is the punishment.

WhereYouLeftIt · 01/10/2009 16:31

My parents and grandparents use to use the phrase "hanging's too good for him", which I took at the time (childhood) to mean that they really really wanted that person to die. Now I'm inclined to see it in a different light. I think instead that they meant they wanted them to suffer, and that death is not suffering, indeed it brings an end to suffering (for the dead person if not for the living left behind).

So, on that basis, if you really want to have revenge you cannot kill the murderer/rapist/terrorist/paedophile etc, you lock him away. Forever. Knowing that there is no escape.

Personally, I do feel that some - not all, but it might even be most - of such people can be rehabilitated, if we go about it the right way. I don't neccessarily mean they could be released, maybe if they were fully rehabilitated they themselves might not feel they deserved release.

I suppose I just want what works - and by that i mean what keeps the rest of us safe - to be used. I don't believe execution or the threat of execution does work. Countries which cling to that notion have higher murder rates than countries that don't. If rehab works, I want it used. If throwing away the key works, I want that used. Safety of the population should take precedence over any desire for vengeance.

Maggie34Behave · 01/10/2009 16:32

MorrisZapp, that's a bizarre and flawed argument. I'm not even tempted to commit a crime.

Anybody who rapes or murders children should be punished severely.

Any Irish MNers will be familiar with Joe O'REilly and his diabolical musings from prison, what dvds he's just watched, his open university course, his book club, how he can get down with the people and chat to anyone, even 'real' murders (as opposed to him ). I know its real purpose is to taunt his late wife's family, and he has lost his liberty yes, but he has definitely constructed a new, tolerable and in some way fulfilling new life in prison. It's too good for him. And there are worse than him.

Original poster
hugmeandcatchthelurgi · 01/10/2009 16:33

For me I would like to see tougher sentances for serious offences (murder/rape/child abuse/paedophiles etc..) The luxurys CATA prisioners earn (ive seen tvs/dvds/gameconsoles) makes me sick.

I dont think prisons are scary enough, and I think prisioners should be made to work, hard. Im all for rehab but the im doubtful to its sucess rate, reoffending is high among certain groups (paedophiles for one)

I know im being extreme but it feels theres no real consequence for offenders.

OP posts:
WhereYouLeftIt · 01/10/2009 16:34

Oh, and I believe it may be harder to get a conviction if the death sentence is a possibility, so it may be very counterproductive to reintroduce it. Apparently juries need a lot more convincing by the evidence when a life is at stake. Can't remember where I read that, but it seems likely to me.

BLEEPyouYOUbleepingBLEEP · 01/10/2009 16:34

I agree with Morris, prisons brutilize people, I think the idea of them being a soft option is probably based on newspaper propaganda looking at open prisons for people who aren't a danger to the public as such.

Loss of liberty, and the fact that the people involved in this will have to stay in solitary for their own protection, to be despised by the other inmates/guards, will be a constant reminder of what they've done. I'd rather they were 'helped' to see what harm they've caused, and then have to live with that knowledge for the rest of their miserable lives. More of a psychological punishment than physical perhaps?

Original poster
hugmeandcatchthelurgi · 01/10/2009 16:36

Do you actually belive a loss of liberty to some of these people is a punishment?

They can even get whatever recreational drugs they fancy...

OP posts:
PeachyTentativelyPosting · 01/10/2009 16:40

YABU

Poeple get convicted wrongly,even with DNA it's a spossibility..... tomr,saying I am pro-death penalty woud equate with saying 'I am prepared to acceot the consequences should one of my children be wrongly convicted'. I am, of course, not.

A whole host of other reasosn such as morality as well, and the massive debate around pain and trauma in the methods of death, and the fact that it as never a deterrant before, and that so many of the people in prison on life sentences already are clearly mentally ill or have SN.........but mainly the one above.

IWantAChickAndADuck · 01/10/2009 16:43

one of these 'things' lives very close to me. I don't agree with the 'dealth penalty'. I do believe that life should mean life and they should be given no special treatment in prison (as in - they're not sergregated from other prisoners).

Original poster
hugmeandcatchthelurgi · 01/10/2009 16:43

I disagree, I do not believe many of the people on life sentences have a mental illness or SN, a minority but not many.

OP posts:
PeachyTentativelyPosting · 01/10/2009 16:44

What I do support is the sytem they were using on that doc (was it Louis Theroux?maybe not) where volunteers would be released after chem castration and +++ testing of sexual repsonses in a safe environment. ANd life meaning life, aswell, and ahrd life too- but never death. Death can't be undone when it is proven wrong. It is also ultiamtely most traumatic to those who are also innovent- the family of the perpetrator.

restlessmog · 01/10/2009 16:45

Is it not about abuse of trust as much as anything. Millions and millions of parents (including myself) have no choice but to put their babies into a nursery. Of course all of the staff at the nursery my daughter goes to appear to be loving, kind, affectionate and gentle with my daughter and all are qualified and have been CRB checked. So had the woman in this case.
It is the total powerlessness not only of the babies (who are of course powerless) but parents who just don't know what happens to their children during the day. That sounds melodramatic and of course this was a very unusual case but sometimes I do think these type of cases call for a jail sentence which sends a message. Whether it would actually act as a deterrant for any others who might be considering such actions I don't know. But it might give some kind of comfort that there was some kind of control at a community level (if not on an individual parental level) about who is looking after your kids when you have done everything you can otherwise do to make sure they are somewhere safe (checking out OFSTED reports - for what they are worth etc)

PeachyTentativelyPosting · 01/10/2009 16:45

loads and loadsof stuff about there on mental illness in prisoners

MorrisZapp · 01/10/2009 16:46

Exactly bleep, if you brutalize people in prison then you add to the sum of violence in the world.

I saw a truly disturbing documentary about a prison riot in California that took place after the inmates had been treated like cattle for months - put in cramped conditions, refused food and basic privacy, toileting etc.

If you treat people like wild animals they will respond like them.

It's true that many people will read, learn things, write, watch tv etc in prison. But if they're in there (as opposed to out here) then it's job done. They have lost their freedom, and can't harm anybody from behind bars. If I was in prison of course I'd read, people will always do what they have to do to pass the time and stay sane.