To expect parents to keep their children relatively quiet in a pizza restaurant...?

[confuseddoiordonti]

I have just got back from a pizza (Planet Pizza in Bristol in case anyone's wondering) and me and DH were driven bonkers by the number of overexcited shrieking childen in there (we got there just before 7pm.)

I am not against children in restaurants, and I realise this is a pizza place rather than the Ivy, but I do object to them charging about and shouting where there are people there with no dc's (like myself.) I realise that some noise is to be expected and I don't have a problem with that, but I do have a problem with the same children running about, shouting and crawling around under tables. Am I being unreasonable by getting a) pissed off and b) wishing they were someplace else so I could eat my pizza in peace...?

Lastly, while I was tempted to go over and ask some of the parents to get their children to keep it down a bit, I did chicken out and hoped they'd realise the kids were too noisey themselves (they didn't.)

Nelly, good sense all round. Definitely not an extreme or smug point of view.

Nappyaddict, you said exactly what I've been trying to say all along!

Somehow, this has been turned into me saying that "95% of small children will happily sit in a high chair indefinitely". I never said that, and I don't believe that. What I did say is that most children are capable of it, so long as their parents are armed with food/distractions and are willing to put in the necessary effort in order not to spoil other people's meals out. I do also think, even at home, that most children are capable of sitting at the table for long enough to eat their meal - this may be only five minutes in the case of a toddler. I wouldn't expect a toddler to stay at the table for half an hour while the adults finish their conversation, but I see no reason for a child of any age to be up and down like yo-yo even at home.

Why, thank you, lllllama!

Erm, sorry, blueshoes, but I'm not sure what this parenting advice is that's being dished out and that I'm allegedly unable to take. Could you please clarify? Are you advising me to let me child get run over and throw food at people? If so, you may be right that I'm unable to take it.

Lordy lawks, the very idea that bad behaviour in under-fives equals bad parenting. If so, I am a thoroughly rubbish parent, along with everyone else. My only point is that children should not be allowed to spoil other people's evenings out.

FWIW, which isn't much, one of mine was always strapped in until he had internalised the reasons why he couldn't just get up and be a pest; the others weren't, because they internalised it much more readily. With all of them, my concern was always: are they bothering other people? If so, I need to do something about it; gentle guidance is obviously the best way, but if gentle guidance doesn't work, then you need very clear rules and consequences (especially with AS, I find). And I don't think you can suddenly expect children to behave in public unless you practise it at home.

If that's po-faced, so be it.

'my' (sorry - tired!)

Nelly, I find it laughable that you think making the "95%" of children who are "capable" of sitting in a high chair, even on pain of distress (that's my children, you know, whether you want to believe it or not), is a pre-condition to teaching a child to eat sensibly in public.

To take a leaf out of your book, I would say you are categorically wrong.

Many ways to skin a cat.

Looks like only you are allowed to defend your parenting (reins remember). But others are not allowed that privilege.

Nappy, pre-schoolers are a specific group: those aged 3.5-5. Just for clarity.

Out of interest, what do people do when they go to restaurants that don't have highchairs?

Oh blimey blueshoes. Defend your parenting as much as you like. I'm not attacking yours, and I don't care if you're attacking mine (you still haven't told me what the parenting advice is that I'm refusing to take). For the zillionth time, what I'm saying is that people should be allowed to eat in restaurants without other people's children bothering them. If you feel attacked, so be it.

Clemette - I have taken mine to some extremely posh places which don't have high chairs, as they're not 'family friendly' (it wouldn't be my choice to take them, but circumstances have sometimes dictated it). What you do beforehand is set out your expectations very clearly at least, ooh, twenty times, the last time just before you enter the room. While in the room, you pull out every single stop to keep them distracted and not disagreeable to other people (including allowing them to ask for things and, if possible, fetch things - this is 'running around' disguised as 'learning social skills'). You have crayons, books, and paper. You make up stories with them (mine love this). When they've managed to do it, you reward them with vast amounts of positive attention. You almost certainly don't take a child under two at all unless they're extraordinarily agreeable!!

Random and unrelated thought: if pre-schoolers are 3.5-5, why do so many four-year-olds end up at school?

For the last time, nelly, don't use reins. Surely 95% of NT children who have dedicated parents committed to raising respectable citizens can be taught road safety if their parents think it is important.

If they run off, take them home. If gentle guidance does not work, set clear boundaries. They are capable of learning without reins, you just need to put in more effort as their parent.

Oh my.... IMO children get excitable in new enviroments you can not practise restuarant behaviour at home as it is completely different, there are many adult restuarants with pizza bars if children bother you so much. babies cry that's a given some children run round that's also a given along with a few tantrums and with talking very loudly, I don't agree with running riot FYI but children under 5 may behave like that once in a while and it's not down to being a bad parent just excitable children.

Parents shouldn't be made to feel like they should go home if their child is a little loud. They go to family places as they know there is bound to be ppl with children also trying to have a meal out where there might be a few tears or shouting.

wow this thing really has a lot of mileage doesn't it?
Can we clarify, personal arguments and infighting aside...
is it or is it not ok to ruin someone else's evening out because you are not minding your own children and letting then run amok and be inappropriately noisy?

The 'minding' can take whatever form necessary to distract the children and thus stop them from doing the behaviour that is a problem to other people. If that includes high chairs, reins, crayons, raisins etc then so be it.

At no point from what I've read have I understood that anyone on here is suggesting you force a distressed child to do anything that makes them even more distressed.

My attitude to being out and about with my children is not at the expense of having fun with them. The POINT is it should be fun for everyone - you, the kids AND the other diners.

I have been to restaurants that have run out when they are busy. If we have driven we always have a portable in the car and use that. If we haven't then I strap him to the chair using the harness from his reins.

DS has been going to preschool since he was 2, so I would class that as a preschooler as well. IMO preschooler and toddler are interchangeable but I guess different people use the terms differently.

Blueshoes, thanks very much for the advice. I hadn't thought of that.

Freename - absolutely right. Is it ok to let your children ruin someone else's evening? No it isn't. In my opinion. Others disagree. I pity their children and all the random diners who have their meals spoilt for them.

I gracefully depart at this point.

Blueshoes/Clemette it has been said time and time again nobody cares how you manage your dc in restaurants,nobody cares how you choose to parent.

What people DO care about is whether you let your dc behave like obnoxious brats and ruin things for everybody else. How you ensure this doesn't happen is not something any of us are particularly bothered about.

Nelly and I have both said our dc are far from perfect but they are NOT allowed to ruin other diner's meals and it is perfectly possible (SEN issues aside)to ensure that children do not spoil other diner's meals-you bring things to amuse them,order things to pick at like Nappy said and failing that you take them out.

Re reins/highchairs. As a parent you have a duty of care. I had 3 children under 16 months. Now I have always liked to encourage my dc to walk,there is no way I could let them walk safely down our high street with bags of shopping and a buggy without reins. What would I do if 1 ran off?Leave the other 2 and hope they didn't wander into the road.

Many,many mums have to juggle buggies,shopping and toddlers, not all of us enjoy a 4 year age gap and a 4 year old with road sense.

I would just add proper road safety doesn't kick in until a child is 8,all children can be very unpredictable until that age. It would be highly irresponsible to not ensure one's dc are entirely safe when juggling a busy main road. If a mother feels they need reins,they need reins. When my dc are on the park, beach or moor they roamed all they liked reins free.

Again with highchairs we had 3 to keep an eye on-they needed to be strapped in to ensure their safety.

Re restaurants with no highchairs- it rarely happened but when it did we took our own travel booster seats.

Mila, I completely agree that children shouldn't be able to run wild. I was responding in particular to the posters who implied/stated that good parents could get their children to sit strapped into highchairs without a fuss (there were a few of these posts earlier in the thread). I was simply pointing out that this didn't really show much understanding of the vast range of temperament types within children.

Staceyhands - good points!

I loathe people who take children to restaurants. Absolutely just plain loathe them.

had one fab holiday when dc's were 4.5 and 3months....fed the youngest in the appartment..by the time we got to the restaurant he was fast asleep. Owner got two directors chairs and put them front to front and they became a makeshift cot. DS1 sat still and ate with us til 11.30pm and DS2 just slept.Went there most evenings as the owner was so nice and he gave us a lovely table away from the music speakers. We had a peaceful evening and so did everyone else and it didnt all centre around the children.We and the other diners loved it and they made us really welcome. Try lots of things to keep them entertained,different foods,books,games,different priviliges like staying up if you are well behaved(it works...or it did for me.(i would have a football team if i could and i would love every minute of it)...but dont make them the total,focus otherwise they will always attention seek.

go to Pizza Provencale instead, it's much nicer!

I think it would be a good idea for restaurants to put up a polite notice saying that children are welcoime if they can behave and be quiet, like they have about dogs in pubs.

Hullygully - I have seen notices like that about childrens behaviour. Definitely saw one in a seaside restaurant in Devon. We took DD in with us, cos there was nowhere else to eat for miles. We spent the whole time we were there stressed out, ate as quickly as possible and then got the hell out of there. Made us feel very welcome - NOT! Luckily DD was FAIRLY well behaved!

But I bet the other diners were pleased. People just don't want kids spoiling their food.

"People just don't want kids spoiling their food."

I don't want your shrieking and running around kids spoiling my meal out.

That is true.

Quite. Great minds.

Mind you, I wouldn't want my shrieking and running around kids spoiling your meal out either.

Suspect that's where we differ

Quite. No kids at all, I say.