to thinks if a school has issue with my parenting skills, that they contact me first?

[mixformax]

I recently made the (long-mulled-over) decision to leave DD (13) and DS (12) alone at home overnight with close supervision by friend and neighbours. Both children are sensible, trustworthy and used to being left for a few hours at a time.

One of DS's teachers learned of this and, without making ANY attempt to contact me, or any of the other emergency contact numbers (4 in total) called in social services which resulted in a plain clothes DC turning up on doorstep and questioning DD.

Also DS and DD attend different schools - DS's school had the cheek to email the other school and alert them of the "problem". Thankfully this school seems to be a bit more in touch with the pupils and actually listened to DD when she told them that she was perfectly happy with the arrangements.

But WHY couldn't DS's school even attempt to listen to him properly before jumping to (very wrong) conclusions of neglect?

LaDiDaDi-

In every school I have worked in, protocol has been to inform SS then the parents.

I cannot find where Working Together says the parents should be informed before SS- do you have a link? I am going on my understanding of the document, and would be genuinely interested to know if I'm mistaken. The document states:

"Staff in schools and FE institutions should not themselves investigate possible abuse
or neglect.They have a key role to play by referring concerns about those issues to
children?s social care, providing information for police investigations and/or enquiries under
s47 of the Children Act 1989, and by contributing to assessments."

Surely calling the parents to discuss suspected neglect and/or abuse constitutes an investigation?

Are you a teacher also? I know guidance is different for different professions. I am actually really interested to gain clarification on this.

I really do not think its about asking the parent to explain so much as including them in the process.

I dont agree that asking them to explain is the same as telling them we dont think you would do that either.

People are taken to court everyday. The law clearly believes they have done something to get that far, they still get the opportunity to explain their actions.

But I'm not talking generally,curiosity, I'm very specifically addressing the OP. There was no way for her to threaten her children who were at school whilst she was wherever she was. If school could have contacted her then they should have done, doing so would not have put these children at increased risk of harm.

The benefit is that these children are likely to attend this school for some time and the school needs to maintain a good relationship with the children and the parents. Honesty and an open approach help this, involving other agencies without informin parents in these circumstances does not. And no, I'm not saying that the relationship with the parents should come above the consideration of the welfare of the child, of course it shouldn't but it does need to be thought about.

chegirl - well, yes but what i am saying is that informing the parents of an investigation could cause an escalation of abuse. The child might have been punished with the belt ocassionally and this might precipitate them being beaten worse than they ever have before. It is for SS to investigate, not the school. It is a strange idea that abusers don't have close friends or people that know them very well. It is perfectly possible the school could know them very well and the dad could beat the kids with a belt. My DS's school know me and my family very well, I wouldn't want this to colour their treatment of DS in anyway, if I was abusing him it would be worrying to think they might give me the benefit of the doubt and an opportunity to explain because they knew me very well.

"While professionals should seek, in general, to discuss any concerns with the family and, where possible, seek their agreement to make referrals to LA children?s social care, this should only be done where such discussion and agreement-seeking will not place a child at increased risk of significant harm."

I can't link to the text but this is directly from the Working Together pdf accessed here.

chegirl-

Parents have a duty to explain their actions to SS and courts, not to teachers. Teachers are simply not qualified to make that judgement. Parents can be included in the process by being informed that SS are involved.

Teachers cannot always know who is telling the truth about being hit with a belt and who isn't, and professionally, they must err on the side of caution.

It does seem to be the normal procedure in schools from what I can gather tethersend.

I am not a teacher. I work in childhealth/development.

In my role I would not be expected to investigate or discuss abuse/neglect. I am expected to inform parents of concerns and that I am contacting ss.

I would not expect schools to conduct an investigation. That isnt the same as telling a parent that they have concerns IMO.

It is very clear in our CP policy.

sorry that last line should have come after the third para, not the last.

ladidadi - the children were not at school when the police paid a visit. They were home alone or with the neighbour - one of the two.

The school would be appropriate to wait until the police and SS had spoken to OP and then have a meeting with her. I really don't know how you can say contacting the OP in this situation would not have put the children at risk, there is no way for you to know this.

They knew the family very well in this case.

Isn't that one of the issues around abuse?
Many are obsessed with reporting 'weirdos' or men behaving in 'an odd manner' outside the home, but
'We know the family so well' can be a very blinkered and unquestioning attitude to adopt.
Leaving your children, overnight or for a week is seen as unreasonable by some and perfectly OK by others. I'd rather bring it to someone's attention and have a potentially endangering situation looked at by professionals that say 'But I know the mum and she's lovely' and so whatever she does must be fine.
And it's for them to have that discussion, not for me, with my lack of experience in that field, to be bamboozled and flannelled and impotent in the face of any explanations, denials and re-writing of event history.

Interesting chegirl because I take the same view as you, again very clear in our CP policy and CP training, and I also work in health.

ladidadi - Operative words being "will not". It is possible contacting the parent first in this situation could put the child at risk.

I disagree tbh. I do though think it's odd that the police/ss didn't come to the school to talk to the children.

There is almost never a situation where a teacher could be absolutely sure, when it is the parent who is being accused of abuse or neglect, that informing the parent of the accusation before SS would not put the child at risk. You can be reasonably sure, quite sure, even positive but there's always a doubt which would mean the 'will not' stipulation would not have been satisfied.

Oh I disagree again, sorry! If the child will be in school as a place of safety until ss/police come to investigate then why not inform the parents at the same time?

But we don't know the timescales or how the school came to know about them being left alone do we ladidadi?

For example, the teacher may have been told or heard this info about the children being left alone right at the end of the school day. t
They may have decided to check their schools policy/consult with the head or whatever before contacting SS. In which case getting the authorities to come to see the children at school wouldn't have been possible.

But of course we have no idea why or how the school found out anyway, because the OP is a troll and has fecked off.

We don't know what time of the day the school contacted SS, it may have been after the children had already left.

Plus what do you do when the parent arrives at home time to take the children or the children finish school? You can't keep them behind based on an uninvestigated accusation! That would be ridiculous and be more of a cause to complain for the parent!

LaDiDaDi-

I appreciate that Working Together presents seemingly contradictory advice; whilst the quote you present is a general one for all professionals, specific guidance for different professions is provided in section 2 of the document. This of course does not state "Do not contact parents", but instead urges teachers not to investigate suspected abuse (see my previous post).

Each school has a CP policy which teachers must adhere to. Every school I have worked in has had a policy which dictates that the designated CP officer must be contacted in the first instance of suspected abuse/neglect. The CP officer then decides whether or not SS need to be involved. Once SS have been informed of the situation, parents may be informed that a referral has taken place.

This is not the same as not involving parents in the process, nor does it contravene the guidance set out in Working Together. The key phrases in your quote are "where possible" and "only be done where such discussion and agreement-seeking will not place a child at increased risk of significant harm"

As curiosity says, avoidance of a potential escalation of abuse is paramount.

I am genuinely interested as to which area you work in? If you are a teacher also, then one of our schools is not adhering to legislation correctly!

Yes I am aware that children are most often abused by people who know them.

I work have been involved in CP for some time, I was a fostercarer, I work with vunerable children.

There are children that have no outwards signs of abuse at all but this is not that common. Being aware of a family is not the same as being complacent. Telling a family of your intentions is not the same as giving them a chance to get their story straight.

In the case I described they could have informed family whilst dd was at school. If they thought she was at such risk that they couldnt tell the parents of their concerns why did they send her home to further beatings? SS didnt get in contact (and then it was by letter) for a week or so. That does not show real concern and good practice. It shows arse covering and a limited understanding of affective CP procedures.

Sorry (again) I didnt mean that first bit to sound like 'dont you realise who I AM!!'

I was trying to explain my experience/postion sort of thing.

I dont think I know it all honest

Sorry LaDiDaDi, see you work in health.

"There is almost never a situation where a teacher could be absolutely sure, when it is the parent who is being accused of abuse or neglect, that informing the parent of the accusation before SS would not put the child at risk."

Very well put, curiositykilled.

tethers,

Totally agree that the school should not be the ones doing the investigating, they must leave that to ss/the police.

Chegirl and I both work in health and have a similar view of it.

I take the point that if the school only found out abou the proposed arrangements as the children were leaving then they should not have informed the OP first. I had thought that I had read somewhere on the thread that the proposed arrangements were discovered by the school at lunchtime break and was responding with that in mind.

chegirl - they didn't, they didn't make a judgement about whether there was abuse or neglect. They informed SS so SS could make a judgement. If they informed the family whilst the child was at school and the family marched down to school to remove the child what do you do then? You can't refuse to allow the parent to take their own child home even if abuse or neglect is suspected!

I am shocked at how little you seem to understand these delicate issues if you are working in this sector.

chegirl-

Whilst it's quite possible that CP procedures weren't followed in your friend's case, it doesn't necessarily follow that the OPs school has not acted correctly.

For decades, schools 'knowing the family well' has resulted in serious abuse either going undetected or children's accusations being ignored. Understandably, legislation is now in place to address this.

And you didn't sound like a know-it-all

If they were that concerned they certainly could prevent the children being taken home. They could get the police to make a place of safety order.

I dont work in this sector.

I told you I work in childhealth/development, not education.

I have managed to remain polite despite not agreeing with you. Do try and do the same.