to thinks if a school has issue with my parenting skills, that they contact me first?

[mixformax]

I recently made the (long-mulled-over) decision to leave DD (13) and DS (12) alone at home overnight with close supervision by friend and neighbours. Both children are sensible, trustworthy and used to being left for a few hours at a time.

One of DS's teachers learned of this and, without making ANY attempt to contact me, or any of the other emergency contact numbers (4 in total) called in social services which resulted in a plain clothes DC turning up on doorstep and questioning DD.

Also DS and DD attend different schools - DS's school had the cheek to email the other school and alert them of the "problem". Thankfully this school seems to be a bit more in touch with the pupils and actually listened to DD when she told them that she was perfectly happy with the arrangements.

But WHY couldn't DS's school even attempt to listen to him properly before jumping to (very wrong) conclusions of neglect?

But the school did not withhold passing judgement, they did pass judgement. Calling ss was a judgement in itself. If a 15 year old was left home alone they might make the judgement that its ok. Because the child was 12 they made the judgement to call ss. I would have thought it would be common sense to call the parents and emergency contacts first to check the story. But since I am categorically wrong perhaps I will shut up now.

curiosity, does that mean you think a 13yo should never be allowed to be responsible for themselves?

never allowed to go off on a shopping expedition with friends? never allowed to walk to school on their own? never allowed to stay in the house on their own?

I actually agree about the overnight thing- wouldn't leave my own nearly 13yo overnight

but I would be very uncomfortable with the thought that she had to be under the care of a responsible adult all the time

because I know she will be leaving home in a few years' time and I want her to have a chance to practise and build up gradually

she isn't suddenly going to develop into an adult on the day of her 18yh birthday

They didn't pass judgement on whether children were at risk or whether action should be taken. they simply judged that a child left alone at night is potentially at risk and needs referring to the appropriate agencies to investigate. Absolutely correct and what they should be doing, and not a 'judgement' that was out of their power to make. I'd be horrified if they had this information and didn't pass it on.

renerusso - calling ss is not passing judgement on anything other than whether the child protection policy needs to be invoked. They did not pass judgement on whether the situation was neglect just that it needed to be investigated. If they had called the parent they would have been required to listen to her reason and judge whether she was lying, abusive or neglectful which would have been inappropriate.

If they had any suspicion of a child protaction issue, then they had no choice at all, whether you view that as a judgment or not.

cory - No, I haven't said what I think. I'm not sure where you have drawn that assumption from the things I said. I am trying to point out that parents can make any decisions they like about their own children but that SS are there to keep parents from making poor decisions which lead to abuse or neglect of their children and parents and SS might not always agree but it is SS that have the final say if you do something borderline or risky. You are really at the mercy of their decision making.

I wasn't stating that you had, curiosity

just asking you to clarify what you meant by the sentence "a child is not supposed to be responsible for themselves, they are supposed to be under the care of a responsible adult".

Because I do know there are MNers who would say that and mean literally that a 13yo should never be left without supervision, for even an hour.

But presumably you meant it a bit less literally than that?

renerusso-

If the school had not called SS, they would then be passing judgement. They would be judging that there was no abuse going on. They could be wrong.

By calling SS, they are deferring judgement to the qualified professionals. In this instance, SS made the judgement.

Calling them is not a judgement on parenting ability by the school. It requires a professional judgement call by the teacher involved, but this is not a judgement on the OP's parenting skills. It is a school doing exactly what it should- not out of fear or hysteria or 'lack of common sense', but because it is a professional and wholly appropriate course of action.

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of leaving the children, the school have a duty to discuss the concerns with Social Services and inform the parents unless doing so would place children at further risk of harm. In this case, I think that the school should have agreed with Social Services that they would call to inform you of the referral.

tethersend, at what age is this not the wholly appropriate course of action by the school? Is it 16? 17? And where are the guidelines?
And what about kids making their own way to school. Is this a matter for ss? And at what age is that acceptable?
Thanks.

tethersend, at what age is this not the wholly appropriate course of action by the school? Is it 16? 17? And where are the guidelines?
And what about kids making their own way to school. Is this a matter for ss? And at what age is that acceptable?
Thanks.

oops sorry

cory - oh right, yes.

That is just generally under law. That doesn't mean the child has to have the adult with them or standing over them 24/7 in all circumstances. It also doesn't mean that the child has no responsibility for themselves under law either. They have varying degrees depending on age. It's just that under the law a parent is responsible for the child until it reaches the age of majority when the child then becomes fully responsible for themselves. This is why they can send parents to jail when children repeatedly truant e.t.c.

YABU. The school acted as it should have. Leaving children of that age overnight would count as neglect by social services.

Where is the troll OP anyway?

renerusso-

As previously discussed, there is no legal age where it is OK to leave a child/young person.

Having said that, IME until the age of 16 this would remain an appropriate course of action for the school to take. However, if a student were known to be vulnerable (SEN, previous SS involvement etc) this could be up to 18.

This is the guideline for leaving children alone from Directgov website.
There is no legal age limit for leaving a child on their own, but it is an offence to leave a child alone if it places them at risk. Parents can be prosecuted for neglect if they leave a child unsupervised ?in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering or injury to health? (Children and Young Person?s Act).
How mature is the child?
The most important factor to consider is how mature the child is. For instance, it may be okay to leave a very mature or ?grown up? 12 year old alone for a day while you are at work, but not a 13 year old who is not mature.
The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC) advises that:

children under the age of thirteen are rarely mature enough to be left alone for a long period of time
children under the age of sixteen should not be left alone overnight
babies, toddlers and very young children should never be left alone

agree with tethersend. I'm a SW and it is correct that for the school this would be an appropriate course of action until 16 and yes, later if SN are involved.

It's not a judgement call, it's a duty. They haven't overstepped anything here or made judgements, just fulfilled their basic duty.

And yes, if a 5 year old were to arrive unaccompanied to school, this would be a matter for SS.

If an 11 year old were to do the same, it would not- unless they were travelling very far across a city.

If you are looking for a definitive answer, as to when this acceptable, you will not find it- there isn't one.

As a teacher, there is always a judgement call to make as to whether or not to involve SS. This does not constitute a judgement on parenting skills.

As John Mac would say "You can't be serious!"

IMO it does not really matter if the OP thinks both her children are sensible, trustworthy and used to being left for a few hours at a time. That is not the point - it is a risk analysis and it is what could happen to them by leaving them overnight - whether by way of fire, or other risk - such as how potentially untrustworthy others are.

For example you could have called an agency baby sitter if you were really stuck - no excuses IMO.

I kind of wonder if it a red herring type of thread?

OP were you actually in the garden shed or something?

snapple - I don't think she was stuck, I got the impression it was a choice.

the op has dissapeared, maybe she has left her kids again and gone out on the piss

nah seriously, i would not leave my children alone, and school's have a right to call social services.
i think even your neighbour thought you shouldnt be leaving your kids, also you put it on her to make sure they where safe, thats why she let your kids stop at her house.

yes me too curiosity, op doesn't seem to want to say where she went

"if a 5 year old were to arrive unaccompanied to school, this would be a matter for SS".

The world really has gone mad. 35 years ago when I was five, I was turning up at school on my own regularly. It was perfectly safe. Not in my first term, I don't think, but after that I wanted to walk on my own like a big girl and my mother let me. We lived in a village and I knew everyone I was likely to bump into, indeed walked with other children on the way so I was very far from the only one.

What on earth has happened to us in such a few short years to make us so absurdly paranoid? Of course in some cases a 5yo turning up on their own might be dangerous (crossing busy roads) or suggestive of neglect. But it depends on the individual circumstances. It should not be a blanket rule.

How have we got from 'parents make rational decisions about their own children except in the rare cases where those children are suffering from neglect or abuse' to 'every parent in stupid and every single one who makes decision X will be investigated'?