to thinks if a school has issue with my parenting skills, that they contact me first?

[mixformax]

I recently made the (long-mulled-over) decision to leave DD (13) and DS (12) alone at home overnight with close supervision by friend and neighbours. Both children are sensible, trustworthy and used to being left for a few hours at a time.

One of DS's teachers learned of this and, without making ANY attempt to contact me, or any of the other emergency contact numbers (4 in total) called in social services which resulted in a plain clothes DC turning up on doorstep and questioning DD.

Also DS and DD attend different schools - DS's school had the cheek to email the other school and alert them of the "problem". Thankfully this school seems to be a bit more in touch with the pupils and actually listened to DD when she told them that she was perfectly happy with the arrangements.

But WHY couldn't DS's school even attempt to listen to him properly before jumping to (very wrong) conclusions of neglect?

you are correct it was a long mulled over decision - crazy.

curiosity, I don't disagree with ss being informed but I do think that the school should have told the op that that was what they were doing. I don't think that the school should have done further investigating themselves but they should have let the OP know.

Working Together (gov document on safeguarding children) states "While professionals should seek, in general, to discuss any concerns with the family and,
where possible, seek their agreement to make referrals to LA children?s social care, this
should only be done where such discussion and agreement-seeking will not place a
child at increased risk of significant harm."

I cannot see how making a telephone call to the op to let her know what was going to happen would have been placing either child at increased risk of significant harm in this situation. I regularly deal with safeguarding issues at work and keeping parents informed of concerns wherever possible is an important part of the process.

Yeah, I'm not sure it is very relevant where she actually went. She has already made it clear it was something that was planned rather than an emergency and stated that she had allowed the children to choose to stay at home alone. It might make it seem better in some people's eyes if she was round the corner and worse if she had gone abroad. Either way people either think it is OK to leave children overnight in this planned kind of way or not, I'm not sure it would make much difference if she was nursing a sick relative or out on the piss with a new boyfriend.

This may have been said already.

I was under the impression that guidelines stress that parents should be informed of the decision to contact social services unless this put the child at risk of harm.

In my work I would be expected to tell families that I had concerns and would be talking to social services.

I think it is cowardly not to unless it puts the child at risk.

This doesnt appear to be the case with regards to the OP.

The school should definately have spoken to her first.

I wouldnt leave kids alone overnight at that age but its not illegal and its not abuse.

Sorry that has cut and pasted horribly but there isn't any missing text.

Thanks chegirl, that's exactly what I was saying earlier and I've just responded to curiosity telling me that I'm categorically wrong .

Well the trouble with being offbeat is that it attracts attention. I don't know if the children really were comfortable with the situation or not.

ladidadi - yes, but the school didn't know what the situation was. Informing the parent that social services were going to be informed might've caused more trouble for the child and the school probably didn't want to get involved with the OP making excuses and trying to persuade them not to call.

chegirl - yes, if the school had phoned the parent first and the parent had said "well I don't know why you think that, I have no intention of doing it" then did it anyway because they thought the school had no right to interfere then the school's actions by phoning the parent might have placed the children in danger. Just the action of phoning can often put the children at risk.

Oh and it is SS who make a judegement about what is and isn't abuse or neglect. They might very well class it as neglect and want to monitor the family.

I simply cannot see how ringing the op and telling her what they were planning to do would have put these children at increased risk of harm.

LaDiDaDi-

When informing the parents is judged not to be putting the child at risk of harm, it is done after SS have been informed, not before.

ladidadi - Because they didn't know if the OP would beat the children for talking about it in school... A million things could happen, the school don't know what had lead to the children being left or what the situation was at home.

I suppose that one of the problems is that when children are neglected, abused or dead there is always an outcry of where were SS? Where were the schools and why didn't someone with a duty of care spot things earlier?
So here is a school spotting a potential problem early on and doing something about it.
If the OP talks to SS and convinced them that there is no cause for alarm, fair enough. So that when it happens again, there is a record of early intervention and assessment of the situation. And if something goes wrong and a child or two die, at least someone tried to do something.
How did school find out? The children probably mentioned it in the playground or in class. They often like to find out what the consensus is on stuff like this, a sort of juvenile AIBU.

I think that is too broad an interpretation of the guidelines curiosity.

They could phone the parent and inform them, the parent could say 'nah I wasnt going to do that' the phone are still able to inform ss of their concerns. Nothing has changed except the parents are kept informed of the process.

The guidelines are to protect children who have disclosed abuse and the act of informing the parents would be dangerous because they are likely to threaten, injure the child in revenge or to intimidate.

Schools and other agencies are supposed to act in partnership with families. The welfare of the child does come first but this does not automatically exclude the parents.

I have heard of schools doing this before. It happened to a friend of mine.

She had 5 children. They had all attended the same school over quite a few years. The family were well known and had never given cause for concern. During a discussion at school her daughter put her hand up and said 'my dad hits me with a big belt'

They went straight to social services without any contact with friend. Social services did the usual but protracted (lack of resources) investigation and found nothing amiss.

Friend was utterly traumatised. It took her years to get over it. It damaged her relationship with her DD for a while because she was so bewildered. DD didnt have a clue what had gone on because she didnt even remember making the comment.

The comment shouldve been investigated. But as the family were known and had given no cause for concern, the mother was in regular contac with the school, DD was known to make random remarks on a whole host of subjects but showed no signs of abuse or disturbance, I wouldve thought it far better to have a quiet word with mum. Explain concerns, give mum the chance to discuss what had happend and then involve ss if appropriate.

The school may have involved ss whatever mum said, to be on the safe side. But at least the family would have some idea of what was going on.

My DS told my friends OH that I punched him in the face over and over for not tidying his room. Imagine if he said that at school and they had a policy of involving SS automatically. How many of us would be under investigation on an almost continious basis?

Not in my department, tethers, and it's not what Working together says either. We tell parents what we are going to do and why whilst maintaining the child's safety at the same time. Given that these children were in school and therefore should surely have been in "a place of safety" I can't see why the op couldn't have been told, although I think that no matter what the OP's response was to this the school should have told ss and not sought reasurance or further info etc from the OP.

it is worth remembering that the school genuinely cannot know what is going on in the home; they have to be very alert when it comes to anything that could be a warning sign

I agree with LaDi

Involving SS is not supposed to be about catching out parents. Its supposed to be about offering support.

I would inform parents before ss if it was safe.

There objections would not stop me doing it. I wouldnt be asking for their permission in a case of CP, I would be informing them of my intentions.

If a child came to me and said she didnt want to go home because her mum's boyfriend was there and mum watched whilst he abused her, that would be an entirely different matter.

The CP would be well into place by the time Mum got a knock on the door.

But the OP is not a case of child abuse.

But curiosity, the OP was going to know what had happened anyway and that the children had talked about it at school! Not telling the OP that they were going to ring social services wasn't going to reduce any theoretical risk of the children being beaten up, how could it? The school wanted ss/police to investigate, fair enough, once they made that decision the OP was going to know what had happened at school.

Thankyou chegirl!

chegirl - a school hasn't got the facilities or training to investigate a serious allegation such as "my dad hits me with a big belt". For all you know it is true. It is the job of the school to refer to SS to investigate suspicions not to investigate them themselves.

If the father was beating the children with a belt and the family were called in to discuss the child shouting it out in class then it is possible the parents would appear upset and confused and then go home and beat the child to within an inch of her life for daring to breathe a word outside the home. It is not appropriate for a school to conduct their own investigation into suspected abuse or neglect. Abusive parents can be very good at hiding it.

That is true Cory. But the school should also have staff who are well trained in CP so the reactions and actions are appropriate to the case presented.

There are so many signs of possible abuse.

Tiredness
Over alertness
Poor personal hygiene
Overly concerned with personal hygiene
Overly sexualised behaviour i.e. taking clothes off inappropriately
Refusual to remove clothes i.e. keeping coat on indoors
Being withdrawn
Over friendliness
Disruptive in class
Unwilling to participate in class

I could go on and on.

I am not dismissing the need to be alert and aware. I know that in every primary school there will be several children who are suffering abuse. I think that we need to be careful not to lable things abuse that are not and not jump to conclusions because of limited information.

My own DS2 suffered early neglect that continues to affect him. I know how vital it is to safeguard children.

I think it needs to be done properly.

ladidadi - Yes, the OP was going to know anyway but in a case where a parent is the one suspected of abuse or neglect of any kind it is safer for the children that the parent is informed of SS involvement after SS have already been informed. Knowing that they were going to recieve a visit from SS or the police would not necessarily put an abuser off abusing a child and might just give them time to threaten the child into keeping quiet. What is the benefit to telling the person who is suspected before calling SS?

Calling SS is not labelling. Informing the parents and asking them to exlain is. It is saying 'we believe you wouldn't do something like that'. Calling SS is merely saying this needs investigation before a conclusion is reached.

They knew the family very well in this case.

Children who are beaten within an inch of their lives generally show signs a long time before they start shouting it out in class.

Infact it would be most unlikely that a child who sustained prolonged and frequent beatings with a big belt would have the confidence to shout very much out in class.

If a school had a pupil in their school who was being beaten regularly and they didnt notice until it got to the shouting out in class stage, I would suggest that they seriously review their child protection procedures.