to be angry at a good friend for benefit fraud...

[Treil]

She is a single Mum claiming to stay at home but has at least 3 cash in hand jobs that I know of. It's not just about the morality of it, i'm also really worried about her ending up in serious trouble. The longer this goes on (4 years now) the more cash in hand work she does and the more she seems to expect and feel 'entitled' to. I have tried talking to her but she is very defensive and seems able to justify it to herself at least. It is badly affecting our friendship.

Meanwhile my partner and I are working hard, paying taxes and have the current economic climate hanging over our heads, it just doesn't seem right somehow ...

Would really like to get some perspective on this and welcome your views/experiences. I can't even talk to my partner about it because he is more wound up than me and would probably report her.

It's terrible this situation. I'm no expert, but there are many families on MN and in general who need much more help than is available currently. And large sums of the cash spent on the "welfare state" is being claimed by people who take no responsibility for their own lives and who quite frankly take the piss.

If I was struggling to get by the honest way I would be totally pissed off by people ending up better off by fleecing the system and would report, definitely. It's no argument that "one mum" isn't the issue compared to tax evaders, when you are talking about many thousands of mums all doing it....

Would that be many thousands of single mums by any chance... DM at its finest

Um no! Actually it was wrong of me to say mums but that was the example given earlier in the thread. One mum vs bankers/tax evaders! I'm not taking a pop at single mums. I phrased it badly...

And actually many of the people I referred to as needing extra help are single mums! They get less help as what's available gets spread so thinly.

Well I have no problem with my taxes helping to fund somebody who is temporarily in trouble. I do however object to them funding a pony. My friend who was shopped was shopped because the neighbours on her close, who were all fleecing the system were jealous because she was getting more Next deliveries than them. This was probably because she was living with her x dh who was earning £40k per year, but was living with her and not declaring it and therefore having all rent, council tax etc paid, while he didn't pay a penny and encouraged her to claim every benefit going. She was herself also working cash in hand herself at the time. She must have been earning in excess of £60k with everything she was doing. How can anybody say that is right.

How much is she earning in these cash in hand jobs and what are they?
I'm assumimg she doesn't have a high flying career and earn 40k cash while also claiming benefits.

I have a friedn who is a single mum of 3 and has to claim benefit as her xh walked out on her. She finds it extremely difficult to live on what she gets in benefit so she does cash in hand cleaning when the kids are at school.

Yes this is wrong but I wouldn't dream of shopping her because would I rather see her struggle and her kids suffer? No.

If she came off benefit adn declared her earning, she could not afford to pay her rent, bills or even eat.
What she gets in her cash jobs is a pittance but it helps to supplement her benefit and give her and her kids a bit of a better life.

What exactly are your friends circs? If she is earning an absolute fortune in cash in hand then yes it's very wrong but not sure if you should do it, it's up to you.

I don't really see how reporting your friend would affect you. If she carries on she'll probably get found out, but you don't need to be the one to do it. She could end up in so much trouble - could you really live with that? You don't have to agree with it but to actually go behind her back and report her...personally I wouldn't even do that to my worst enemy, let alone a friend. I'd rather concentrate on my own life than poking my nose into someone elses.

I am a single mum on benefits, no contact with the other parent so no help there. And here's a confession; I do some casual part time work from home for a friend's company for which I get paid cash. And I've got a goldfish not a pony! Without this extra cash, there are some things - and I admit, non essentials - I could not afford, for example: going to dance classes, meeting other mums for coffee at indoor playcentre, hopping on tube/bus to visit family regularly or taking my son to museums/farms etc., buying birthday/christmas presents for others, shop in Sainsburys without a calculator so that I'm not caught short at the till, fridge never empty, going out occassionally with friends/family for birthday celebrations, having birthday party for ds, inviting anyone to my house for a meal....etc.

So, yes, my friend could report me too, but she doesn't because she can see that even without bigger luxuries (eg. holiday, car) these little things make all the difference in my life. I need to have a bit of a life of my own, so that I can be a happier mum, and for that, I do need a bit of money for hobbies or for going out occassionally. When I look in the fridge and it's empty, or I have to turn down an invite to a birthday party for my ds because I can't afford a present - sorry, I can't help it, it just depresses me. I feel like shit when my ds questions me about those things. I hate borrowing money from friends and family when I'm caught short because of an unexpected expense.

So in order to have a better quality of life, not a luxurious one, but one where I am not counting pennies or fretting about money, one where I can do normal things like my friends can, I earn a bit of extra cash. It's not ideal and it's temporary but I'm very grateful for it.

good post weathergirl. The fact is the things the extra money pays for are essentials though, for your mental health, eg visiting family, taking your child out, on income support I couldn't even afford a poxy magazine for my children. Another fact is that a lot of what some see as underclass scum are actually clinically depressed. I know when I was on them I was an aggressive, nasty bitter and twisted witch. Having even a bit extra has made the world of difference to me, and I'm a better mother aswell, without the stress of choosing between buying milk and toilet paper.

As i've now said a couple of times, I could not report a friend, the reason I can't taqlk to DH about this is because I know he would.

Her x dh walked out so she went on benefits which is right and fair, she then started doing a couple of cleaning jobs which I happily turned a blind eye to. However, she now virtually has her own business to do with the horses and literally rakes it in. Not only does she keep a horse but also shows it every weekend through the summer, has her own horse box and goes on expensive holidays. Her own family don't even realise she is on benefits , can you at least understand why this makes me angry?

I have another friend that struggles but lives on her benefits and still manages to run a car and have occasional nights/days out so I know it can be done!

I just want her to stop but she really can't see that she is doing anything wrong, she really does think the world owes her a living

If you really can't bring yourself to report her, then I think you'll just have to live with the feeling of anger and injustice for now, but with the knowledge that at some point she will get found out, and that the longer its gone on, the greater the consequences are likely to be.

At the end of the day, she's the one who's running a big risk of ending up with a criminal conviction, so if she wants to live with that - explaining it to her kids, possible future partners, any future employer...

Rest assured it'll come back to screw her life up at some point.

Excellent post, whethergirl

I've been in a similar position, as have thousands of others.

The OP's friend is taking the piss and there's a world of difference between what you're doing and she's doing. The sad thing is that there are some deeply unpleasant people that take pleasure in shopping people like you (and I). Those wretched TV ads don't help

I wouldn't report her either.

I've got a friend who does this and I would never report her in a million years, as I know the reasons why she does it. I know it's very wrong and she does too.. I said to her one day they will catch up with you and it won't be nice.

She claims for herself and her 2 children even though she lives with her husband because he is that unreliable he had his jobseekers suspended twice because he couldn't bebothered to turn up for interviews etc and it has left her penniless at times. She says at least she has her own money coming in and the kids won't starve.

But I still think its a sad situation, she certainly isn't rolling in it, barely surviving in fact but she is my mate and I just couldn't do it. It's her life, they will catch up with her one day and it will not be pretty.

whether girl I like your post.

How many of you do Avon, or betterware, or Ebay and don't declare that? Thats extra money on the side if you are claiming benefits?

I know someone a bit like this.

I'm a bit jealous aswell that she seems to come up smelling of roses wheras I just end up falling flat in the compost that feeds said roses so I can see where you are coming from. However I have never deamt of grassing her up because she is my friend.

Spend less time being envious of her situation and instead look at whats good in your life (ie for me my friend doesn't own her home as she is on benefits, whereas I am mortgaged up to my eyeballs but at least I will own it eventually and have something to pass on to the kids - my friend won't.....)

sheepgomeep asks "How many of you do Avon, or betterware, or Ebay and don't declare that?". I'd go one further and ask "How many of you do Avon, or betterware, or Ebay and don't declare that to the inland revenue?" For sure the amounts will generally be way, way smaller (except perhaps for Ebay - who knows?), but I don't see the Government running a campaign encouraging people to shop small-time tax evaders (or indeed bigger-time tax evaders)...

Tha said I still maintain the the OP's friend is taking the piss. But as others have said, it will come back and bite her at some point...

its really wrong - i have a friend who does the same and with the amount of hours we work and the tax we pay i think its really unfair my friend gets everything paid for, she even pretends her baby's dad doesn;t live with them. pisses me off

...and it is also your! money she is getting. I wouldnt be her friend anymore and would ask her to stop otherwise I would report her. I dont care what she things of me as I know what I think of her!!!

Ebay on the side only counts if you're buying specifically to sell. I do this and I declare for tax as a self employed person. When I was working, I declared as part time worker, part time self employed. I paid my dues so I could help pay for public services. I never complained about tax levels as it's all needed to help those who can't help themselves.

The guy across the road from me also does Ebay. He doesn't declare it. He lists way more things than I do and makes thousands each year. He lists in his spare time, works FT and his wife works PT. They are mortgage free, have a brand new truck on the drive and go away every year.

Should I report them?? Why? The tax man can rarely prove anything in cases like this. I know why this guy does this. He wants more from life. He works hard to get it. He should pay his taxes, but it's his choice. I personally couldn't sleep nights. I told his wife he should be declaring but she said he'd just plead ignorance. That's his prerogative. If he gets caught it'll be down to IR, not me. It's not my responsibility.

In the OPs case, I can see why she'd be getting uncomfortable with things. Doing a little something on the side to stretch things out is one thing. Having a pony, a box, expensive holidays, etc, is quite another.

But that begs the question. Is someone a crook because they steal £10? Or are they only a crook because they steal £100?

A lot of these discussions are about scale, but at the end of the day, wrong is wrong. The question here is whether it's more wrong to rat out a friend than it is to not contribute to a tax system like ours???

You sound like a really lovely friend to have !!

I liked your post whethergirl

It is beneifit "fraud", it is ilegal, not just wrong. Even if she wanted to stop, they will ask questions when she decides to come off. I claimed Tax credits for 6 months more than I should, when I told them they wanted to know the inside of a duscks a**e! She has grabbed the tail of the tiger!

Message withdrawn

"I find it unbelieveable the way people harp on about "their" taxes funding single mums on benefits. Yes, in a round about way - but only a very small percentage go into the welfare state "pot". Plus people claiming benefits have often paid into the "pot" themselves and will probably do so again at somepoint in the future!"

I doubt very much its a very small percentage claiming benefits as a single parent, there would have been no need to amend the IS re child age limits if the amounts claiming were so small. Yes some may have paid in but thousands wont have and wont in the future. Many simply switch to another benefit once the IS stops.

Saying benefit fraud is ok to meet end meets doesnt make it legally right or moral. If they had a proper job paying tax then there would be no need to work cash in hand whilst other tax payers work hard to support them.

Maybe parents with young children want to be home with them. What's immoral is punishing them for it by having them live below the poverty line

But that's OK because it's within written law. So is the TV license, showing that written law and morals are different things altogether