To be a bit annoyed that my cleaner made herself a cuppa?

[kwaker5]

Have had a cleaner for about 8 weeks. On first visit I offered her a cuppa as I was having one but she declined and said she always brought her own drinks with her [pointed to cool bag].

I usually let her in and clear off with the DCs while she's there but last week I came back a bit earlier than normal and noticed she'd made herself a brew.

I'm not really pissed off but it's niggling at me. Isn't there and unwritten rule that they shouldn't go in your cupboards/drawers?

Kitty :
"I don't set rules, I employ people I consider to be effective workers, someone who takes breaks within a three hour period is not an effective worker."

Here's the crux on which the hinge pivots. Many of us disagree with your central premise. I think an effective cleaner is someone who gets the cleaning done, in the time allotted, to a reasonable standard. I think this is possible even if if the cleaner has taken a break.

I think that the OP has been a bit unfairly treated, because her problem was with the cleaner helping herself, not with her having a cup of tea. However, I think that the cleaner helping herself is fine.

Oh, and the reason I wouldn't mind my cleaner helping herself is because I would have said to her - "help yourself to tea or coffee", on the first day

Every employer I've ever had, and those of my friends, has been perfectly happy to their employees to make tea, have lunch, etc, whenever they like, on the employer's time. The attitude has always been - you are paid to do a job; it's up to you how you achieve that. Why should a cleaner be different, just because she is paid a lot less? If she works like a demon without a break for 2.55 hours, finishes everything and then leaves; or if she works for 2 hours, stops for 5 mins for a cuppa, then works for another 55 mins, finishes and leaves - what is the difference? The job is still done.

I don't think this is fair or even-handed:

"You would never have known what I thought of your break- taking, I would always be very kind, thankful and polite. Smiling and pleasant. You would think everything was fine until I said I didn't need you anymore."

In my book, it's fair to explain to employees what is expected of them. Then they can make an informed choice if they want to work for you.

Do I remember a thread where you got through about half a dozen aupairs in a year? I think I do.

It would save you immense amounts of time in terms of recruitment and the adjustments your children need to make if you were straight and up-front about your expectations. Our cleaner has worked for us for 10 years. We really value her. But we wouldn't have kept her for 10 minutes if we'd started with all sorts of hidden expectations that we didn't communicate.

Took the words right out of my mouth Quattro - are people meant to guess what is and isn't acceptable to their employer? All my years of line management, I'm not sure anyone's ever told me about the importance of secrecy

Besides, referring back to the OP, I think being offered tea/coffee initially would be a clue that tea/coffee might be acceptable? Really, all this guff about whether people need breaks or not is irrelevant - the OP indicated that having a cuppa was acceptable by offering one in the first place.

The only debate is whether the cleaner should have assumed she could therefore help herself.

quattro - that explains a lot for me. i was wondering if kittys cleaners were meant to add mindreading to their CVs.

I think smiling and being pleasant to someone who's employment you are planning to terminate as a 'surprise' is calculating, manipulative and vindictive.

Tell them if there is something you are not happy about and give them the opportunity to adjust.

"I don't set rules, I employ people I consider to be effective workers, someone who takes breaks within a three hour period is not an effective worker."

Late on this (and about to be repetitive) but I think this attitude to "staff" (how horrendous) is why people don't agree with you kitty. I judge the effectiveness of my cleaner on how clean my house is. I pay her for three hours but have no idea if she stays for that long, has little breaks, watches TV etc etc. She is a HIGHLY effective worker because she can clean my whole house in three hours (something I seem physically incapable of doing).
Yes - she isn't "entitled" to a break (though you have been out of teaching too long I suspect - we are now only allowed to go 2.5 hours without a break) but she is a skilled self-employed woman, not a minion - I treat her with professional courtesy, and that includes allowing her to meet her own needs in her place of work. I am not her superior.

As for the OP - she would hate my cleaner - she reorganises things here when they are getting out of hand!

I bet the OP is a plant from the Daily Mail...

I would have told her to make herself a tea/coffee and pointed to where those things are so that she could make herself one, i do the housework whilst having a cuppa and it certainly helps productivity.

quattro, the au pair thing is very different. I am very upfront about my expectations with them. I have a fantastic one at the moment. It's all about personality and whether they can be in a house with that many kids.

No it wasn't 12!

half a dozen = 6 (not 12). I take it you werent a maths teacher

What is it the OP's cleaner does then? My mum's a cleaner. She does washing and ironins so therefore has to put clothes away in bedroom cupboards and drawers.
She also washes up and cleans kitchen, so puts cups and plates away.
I can't think what reason there could be to not allow someone to have a cup of tea!!
And how long is she working for because there are laws about allocated breaktimes.

I am a little shocked tbh. Don't most people offer visitors etc a drink the minute they arrive? To not want your cleaner to make herself a cuppa is shocking and I think the OP should be a little ashamed of herself.

If I didn't have a job I'd be ashamed to let someone else clean my house for me unless I was ill.

I'd also appreciate the irony of expounding at great length on other peoples' lack of work ethic.

@Kitty, not OP.

PML - one of the best threads I've read in ages! Right cheered me up :D

(I've only read up to page 4)

I just sacked my cleaner this morning for not turning up four out of the eight weeks I've had her - now I don't consider that unreasonable. But it's an interesting question - what is acceptable and unacceptable for people working in your house.

To me I have no problem with a cleaner having a cup of tea or indeed taking a ten minute break if she's here more than three hours (I would actually prefer that - people work better if they have a break - a knackered hassled cleaner does not do as good a job as a happy refreshed one IME).

But how explicit should I be when hiring the next one? Do you say upfront: I don't mind you making a cuppa, but I do mind if you switch days without notice so I don't know when you are coming and end up having to do stuff myself because my MiL is coming and the place is a tip? Or should these things be implicit?

Kwaker5, get real, it's a cup of tea not the crown jewels. The fact you'd offered her a drink prob made her think you wouldn't mind - tho' I can just about understand where you're coming from. Can you imagine what you'd say if you confronted her about this - how you'd sound? Imagine yourself being the sort of kind, generous and friendly individual who instead of thinking what you are thinking, thinks, I'll tell her where I keep the biscutis for next time!
It's not a great job and we are all human - be kind.

How do people 'sack' cleaners?
And how they are employers?
Do you have contract? Pay tax and NI? Maternity leave and redundancy?

Aren't cleaners self-employed paying their own tax and therefore you are clients who pay for a service?

P.S. TheOnlyDaily, you are not unreasonable and i am not having a go at you but there is so much 'i am employer, have cleaner and AP' here and lectures on law, and workk ethic and i don't get it. If someone can explain...

You do have to trust your cleaner. I've been impressed with the agency I've used, because the owner is clearly a very sensible employer (my cleaner says she tells them that their family comes first, for example, if one of the children is ill and she arranges a replacement - made me feel much happier that I wasn't exploiting anyone!).

What I'm rather ramblingly getting at is that in an employment situation you have to think carefully about how you react to certain management styles. I would react badly to someone who told me I wasn't allowed to make a cup of tea - I would be jobsworth after that! Obviously you don't want to be a sap, but equally you want to make sure that you are treating someone with whom you are in a close trust relationship as a human being - and expect them to reciprocate. So I would make clear at the beginning that swapping around days without notice would be highly disruptive and unacceptable. I would also make clear what I wanted done and the standards I would expect (this is an ongoing dialogue). I would also praise good work, ask questions as to what the cleaner might need to help her with her work, keep a dialogue going as to how she is and so on. When her birthday is, special occasions and so on.

And let the poor woman make herself a cup of tea at the very least!

TODMformeisdh (phew) - I should, in a chatty manner, say to your next cleaner how pleased you are to have found her and that you were looking for a new one because sadly your last one was unable to make it four out of eight times so you agreed to terminate the arrangement. She'll get the message!

Thescattergunapproach - raising kids is not considered a job then..? And not sufficiently arduous that SAHMs don't merit a bit of help round the house to keep things tidy, even if it's easily affordable and giving employment to someone who needs it? Should we suffer the pains of housework as a penance for not contributing to the tax coffers? Is it better to have paid employment and put kids in childcare costing poss more than is earnt, taking travel into account? Grrr.

Actually TSGA don't answer that; I don't need to be having a go at you and vice versa. Should have ignored.

Message withdrawn

Rofl, I think it's a fantastic notion that those who have cleaners are somehow lazy, absolutely brilliant

Of course that notion would only be expounded by those who, for whatever reason, don't have one.

I think it's great that I have someone to do some of these household jobs for me. That way I get time to do the things I would rather be doing. That doesn't make me lazy it makes freed up to enjoy life more.

Of course I'm sure there are some people like scattergun would much rather spend her time cleaning even if she could pay someone else to do it for her for fear of social embarrassment, oh dear, oh the shame of it, I feel the curtains twitching all around me

dilemma that's a terrible plight to be in. Hope you can help her. How can some people treat cleaners like second class citizens - it is just plain wrong. There are some horrible people out there. She should turn up at the hospital to confront her ex employers and publicly embarrass them.