'why bottle might be better than breast' - GMTV this morning

[babyignoramus]

Hasn't even been shown yet but can't imagine it's going to go down too well here!!!!

Anyone else going to watch - it's going to annoy the arse off me but I can't seem to tear my eyes away......

Can social class affect the statistics, in that there are more middle class BFing, and social class has an impact on health in general ? Just wondering.

Yes Clara, they can, so those variables are controlled for the bigger BFing health studies cited by the WHO and DOH etc.

Damn. I was hoping I could cancel out my poor BFing record with a bit of upward mobility.

PS Thanks Olifin.

breast isnt best, breast is normal. www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8BjnGCNahU

and reading some of the posts saying the ff fed babies are as healthy as breastfed? Where is the evidence for this?

So fed up with defending breastfeeding and tiptoeing around with comments like' well as long as mum is happy'.

Breastfeeding is bloody tough at times and a real commitment, but that is what parenting is about is it not? Why are so many women depriving there children of most important nutrional benefit and also the close comfort of breastfeeding?

Oh and also bored with apparantly being smug because i can and do breastfeed. I am not smug, I am very very proud that i am and have done this for my dc. I love it, they love it and it is fantastic. It is not just about the milk, it is also about the comfort it gives them and the closeness we share. It is simply magical.

And yes there is not enough support for women to breastfeed, and the guilt felt by mums who ff should not be offloaded against women who bf. Instead perhaps they can channel this into supporting their offspring when they are older and have children of their own in breastfeeding.

Lol Clara I'm sure your 'poor BFing record' () won't hinder your DCs in future life

Have read this thread from start to finish with interest ...
There seems to be the usual - and understandable - mix of strong emotions here. However, I've not come across any breast-feeding mother's comment on this particular thread that is smug, despite what a few posters seem to be saying.
To echo others' comments, the fact is that breast-feeding is undeniably best for babies - and for as long as possible.
STRONG support needs to be offered to all mothers, both before and after the baby is born to establish and continue breastfeeding, I think.
With my first dc, I had zero support before she was born, other than the reading I had done and I was under the impression that it could be a little tricky, but we'd get the hang of it after a few attempts and everything would be rosy. How wrong I was. Living abroad, I knew nothing of La Leche or lactation consultants and so within the first week, I made the heart-breaking decision to ffeed my dd. The guilt remains with me to this day, 4.5 years on.
When I was pregnant with my 2nd dc, I was put in touch with a lactation consultant I had come across through meeting other mothers and it's thanks to their support (La Leche and bfeeding friends) that I was able to exclusively bfeed my son. It was absolute torture for the first two months, bleeding nipples, excrutiating pain, mastitis, the lot, but I was determined not to give in this time. But I am sure that I would not have succeeded had it not been for the support and advice I received.
Having been in both feeding camps, it amuses me that I have never felt any smugness when meeting other bfeeding peers, but have repeatedly come across the bashing that bfeeders get from ffeeders.
I wonder how much of this bashing is really a deep-seated guilt at not being able to bfeed, which they then try to cover up by accusing bfeeders of smugness? And how much of this animosity could be eradicated if there were lactation consultants immediately at hand for every expectant and newborn mother?

i had ds by emergency c - section. suffered from severe pnd and quite low. 2 friends visited me a few days after i came out of hospital and started to spout how breast was best and that i should try for at least a few weeks before giving up, because they wouldn't have dreamt of not bf and that i will regret it and never feel that close bond with my baby. this was against the advice of the pediatrician as at that stage ds lost too much weight and had jaundice. they didn't give a toss about my emotional stage, only about how ds was fed. if i followed my friends advice ds would be dead by now. did i think they were smug, resoundedly yes.it's the assumption by most bf mums, that a mum who ff didn't persevere as much as they did that leads to this conclusion. it's hard enough having to make the decision to ff and one that is never never made lightly. i'm not denying that breast milk is not better, but sometimes there are medical conditions etc which stops people from bf. it doesn't matter what container the milk comes out of, why do some mums assume that bf brings you closer to your baby? apparently ff mums don't cuddle their babies or hold them close when they are fed i've done both and would never dream of trying to influence other people in their decision how to feed their baby.

"apparently ff mums don't cuddle their babies or hold them close when they are fed"

Who said that, secretgartin? No-one here, I think.

I also encouraged my friends to bf. In the madness of a newborn baby, you hardly know which way is up, and so I encouraged friends to continue with bf because I thought they would regret it if they stopped. And many of those that stopped did regret it, however valid their reasons were.

We all accept that some people can't bf, don't we? Is anyone saying otherwise?

I'm finding all the stories on this thread from people who were unable to breastfeed sad. It makes me quite angry as well. I know a number of bf counsellors and three lactation consultants, all of who have worked with women and babies with complex breastfeeding problems, generally with a pretty good degree of success. Why aren't lactation consultants working on all postnatal wards and available to all women within the community?

secretgarden - your friends were horribly insensitive and it's a shame they weren't more tuned in to your feelings. But it's also quite sad that a paediatrician made you feel that you couldn't and shouldn't breastfeed your baby, even though this had clearly been your plan prior to having your baby. Lots of babies are 'slow starters' and get jaundiced in the first week. In a hospital where breastfeeding is prioritised they would have done more to help you - maybe shown you how to cup feed formula or express colostrum and cup feed that to your baby, so that you could continue to try to establish breastfeeding while making sure your baby got the fluids needed to clear his jaundice and begin to regain his birthweight.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that I know people with all sorts of breastfeeding problems - including women who can only feed from one breast, women with inverted nipples, women who produce very little milk because of hormonal problems, women whose babies have poor muscle tone or cleft palates, or who are very tiny, or very large, and all of these people have been helped by lactation consultants. Some are able to breastfeed fully, some partially, occasionally a mum might only be able to give her baby expressed milk by bottle - point being that they wanted to give their babies their milk, and they were helped to do that by people with real expertise.

It's really not good enough that so many women are left feeling they 'can't' breastfeed, when in reality - with expert and timely help, almost all women can breastfeed in some capacity. And as a society, if we valued breastfeeding more and didn't see ff and bf as roughly equivalent (which they aren't) then we might make more of a fuss that this help isn't available to more people.

"if we accept bf is the ideal"

It's not an 'ideal' - it's the biologically normal way to feed a baby. The 'default' mode if you like. From a baby's point of view there are no 'complex factors'. They are made to breastfeed - they crawl towards the breast at birth and try to latch on. Their feeding patterns - little and often - are shaped to fit with the way the mother lactates, and the way the mother lactates fits with the baby's needs. Like a jigsaw puzzle really. It really, really shouldn't be that a mother should feel 'lucky' to be able to breastfeed. We should all be asking ourselves what it is we are doing to mothers and babies in the UK around the time of birth and shortly after, which makes breastfeeding so difficult for them, that interferes with this instinctive behaviour, when it's not the case in many other cultures.

And this issue shouldn't be reduced to simply being about health, or the wishes of mothers. This is also a quality of life issue for babies.

From a baby's perspective bf and ff are very different experiences. It's not just that bf babies are getting fresh food, it's that they have more autonomy in their feeding (because bf tends to be 'baby led', where as ff is mostly 'mother led') and from a sensory point of view bf has got to be more stimulating and satisfying.

I do think these things need to be taken into account. Infancy lasts such a short time, and it should be as blissful as possible for babies. I think breastfeeding is intensely pleasurable for babies and is an integral part of the dialogue and relationship they have with their mums early on.

I stopped breastfeeding at 8 weeks because DS had sever reflux, tummy problems and protein allergies and needed to be put onto special forumla. It was a god send and the best thing i ever did. I remember waking in the night to a hungry DS and being so tired myself i would smack into the wall rushing out of bed and crying on the floor with him attached to me sobbing how much i hated it.

I am more than happy to FF my next baby due in Dec if BF doesn't take off and in no way will i feel guilty about doing what is best for all involved. And anyone who tries to tell me differently will find a much stronger mother with a heck of a lot of experience and viewpoints answering them back!

I find the 'smug' ones are always the ones that were able to BF, I find it 'smug' that these are the one's that feel they need to point out just how they are doing the 'right' thing I don't think anyone needs it ramming down their throats that breast is best...I do know that hence being very upset when I couldn't manage BF. I do understand that FF is artificial, don't know about other people but I am not a moron. Just seems that maybe the one's on here who are little bit OTT are only like that becuase they were able to and not really thinking about what it's like to not be able to, comments such as 'choosing to put your baby at risk' WTF, shut up.

Gillyan, I breastfed myself, but I find the lactivists so annoying it makes me want to march down the street with banners saying "it's ok to ff, and nothing bad will happen".

There is certainly a wider picture, but I think this debate has become specifically concerned with whether there are risks associated with ff. Your point earlier about other factors is also very valid, but taken in isolation, breast is better. Totally agreed that once other factors are taken into account, this might not be the case.

The increased hysteria and attack on bf mothers is childish and ridiculous. Not being able to bf is sad, but don't take it out on those that can.

swallowedafly - I knew someone was going to come along and accuse me of implying all mothers should breastfeed, no matter how desperate it makes them feel, or how dysfunctional the bf is.

Nobody would argue that bf should continue - no matter what. Only individual mothers can know what they can cope with in the context of their own relationship with their baby and special set of circumstances.

I just think we have to ask ourselves if the situation we have now in this country is as it ought to be - with the majority of women stopping breastfeeding long, long before they wanted to.

Really breastfeeding shouldn't be like that and isn't like that for the majority of women in other more breastfeeding friendly cultures.

Most women in this country don't have access to really expert help when they run into problems breastfeeding. I think that's criminal.

Would also like to point out that you've really overlooked the point I was making in my post, about the experience of bf from the baby's perspective. I was making the point that we reduce this issue to one of health concerns and lifestyle/emotional issues for the mother. I would like for a broader view to be taken of this subject, which puts the baby's emotional experience as well as the mother's emotional experience of feeding at the centre. You mentioned your own tough experience of feeding and say "are the small increased risk of allergies and obesity really weighing up as more important than child and mother's malnourishment, exhaustion, mother's mental health, breakdown of the child mother bond" and of course the answer is no. (especially if you assume the only advantages of bf are the ones that you mention). If breastfeeding isn't working then generally, it needs to be fixed or stopped. Feeding isn't going to be blissful for mum or baby if it's seriously dysfunctional. What makes me sad (and I've said this on another thread) is that most of the time, when bf is dysfunctional and difficult, it's something that can be dealt with, if the right sort of expert help is available. Unfortunately - this help isn't available for most people in this country. And as long as people continue to trivialise breastfeeding as being a mere lifestyle issue, or downplay the health benefits for babies then there is no motivation to change this situation.

Obv, SwallowedaFly.

But we do need to talk about things in isolation. It is very useful to compare differences, and to do so we must assume that everything else is constant. So in this case, bf is the best choice where everything else is constant.

I live in a country where BF is the norm. On a recent visit to the UK with my newborn I found it quite unbelieveable that no-one was breastfeeding in public and lots of people were formula feeding. On the way back home I sat next to a couple from Spain on the plane who asked me outright "Why dont people breastfeed in Britain?". "WHere do you breastfeed?" "In SPain everyone does it outside on the street." I had no answers for them (I had been going to the toilet!) but just reading this thread makes me see that FF is not seen as a back up in the UK but for many women is an <span class="italic">active</span> <span class="italic">choice</span>. Its almost as though BF is seen as "weird". I do think people need more education about the risks of formula feeding. Im not talking about those women who couldnT breastfeed. Im talking about women who choose to FF because they somehow think that it is just as good as breastmilk. THose women need to understand that formula is backed by huge marketing corporations who want them to buy their artificial formula in order to line their pockets. THey dont make formula to <span class="italic">help</span> women who couldnt breastfeed. They actually want as many people as possible to stop BF so they can make more money. This is why they went to the third world and gave it the hard sell over there, resulting in lots of infant deaths.

I live in Japan not SPain but found that BF was quite difficult to do socially in the UK, just as the SPanish couple found.

Sakura -what rot. Forumla whilst it may not be as natural as breast millk is produced to the highest level of nutrition and provides all the eceesary vitamins and health requirements that a baby needs. It does not provide antibodies that a mother's milk does but it is certainly not harmful - how sensationalist.

er necessary - have no idea what eceesary is?